Zack vs. Cloud: Who's Stronger?
- Thread starter Nikkolas
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In ShinRA, combat rank is based on what level of SOLDIER you where in. I can go looking for quotes from FFVII and CC if need be but Sephiroth was number one in SOLDIER 1st Class with Angeal and Genesis taking second and third. Since they where in the same rank of SOLDIER they had the same combat rank. He did not match Sephiroth. Besides, just because a guide is official, doesn't meant it's good. Just look at the one for FFVII. That one was full of errors.
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SOLDIERis1337
The Immaculate
Look at the sentence, rank is being used as a verb, not a noun. To top it off it says his combat abilities are equal to Sephiroth's combat abilities, not that they have the same rank. There's not even such a thing as a combat rank in SOLDIER, there are simply three classes. If you were right it would just say Genesis is a first class, there would be no need for them to say the same thing twice in one sentence.
The FF VII 10th anniversary Ultimania is not a third party strategy guide that can be prone to errors, it is a book written by the creators of FF VII and the Compilation to explain the story. It is the bible of the series.
Priestess-Mars
.:The FFF Kitty:.
Cloud surpassed Zack because Cloud actually DID beat Sephiroth in the mako reactor. When Zack tried he couldn't. >< But I still love Zack!
SOLDIERis1337
The Immaculate
Cloud beat Sephiroth with a cheap shot while Sephiroth was not fully sane. Let's face it, When Cloud snuck up from behind he delivered a wound that would have killed anyone else, Sephiroth's spine was cut in half and many of his organs would have been damaged beyond repair. The fact that he was even walking afterwards is a miracle, but he was severely limping. When Cloud tossed Sephiroth overboard at Nibelheim Sephiroth was severely weakened and not in his right mind. This is a poor example to use for Cloud's superiority, as if Cloud faced Sephiroth head on like Zack did he'd be in small pieces in under a minute.
HighwindPilot
White Mage
Not that it matters, considering the fact that we're dealing with fictional, superhuman characters, but.. The blade completely missed his spine. The cut was at an angle, meaning we're looking at pierced organs anywhere from the liver to the intestines. You don't need your gallbladder and only one kidney. The other two organs - I'm sure a superhuman freak with Jenova Cells and Mako could manage while damaged (and he did).
Then you look at Cloud...
Hate to point out the obvious here, but somehow it's always ignored here: Cloud was impaled too. The sword was in him and even pushed deeper when he grabbed it to overcome Sephiroth. The puncture ranges from his Xiphoid Process (which is kind of a huge deal) and the rectus abdominus, possibly even stabbing thoratic region of the vertebral column. All this baring in mind that Cloud had no such Mako exposure or Jenova cells at the time.
Now, normally, I wouldn't even touch any of that since we're dealing with fiction (don't they take materia shots of fire and bullets?), but it looks to me as though you're sitting here flowering up the damages done to Sephiroth and so much as completely ignoring Cloud's. ...Wait, what?
The reality of the situation is that they were BOTH damaged goods at that point, but one (Sephiroth) even had help (the cells, mako) and likely the means to heal himself (materia), while the other was a lowly soldier (Cloud). Yet somehow, even after getting punctured and picked up with a sword in him, Cloud managed to draw on inner strength to out-muscle Sephiroth.
So yes, the accomplishment is as big as it seems, and it says a lot about Cloud. Sure, Zack may have been more skilled and equipped at the time (baring in mind his Mako exposure). But judging by the strength he summoned, Cloud's potential was unfathomable.
We could sit and play around with timelines all day and say "A was stronger than B" at "Point X", but both at their peaks is what really matters.
Oh, and no, Genesis is not Sephiroth's equal, sorry.
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Apparent Amarant
Blue Mage
Well I disagree. If someone gets severely injured and is attacked by someone else who is severely injured the person who is attacked is at a much bigger disadvantage then in a well person got attacked by another well person. So no it isn't an impressive feat at all. I never once though while playing it "holy crap he just beat Sephiroth".
Also comparing them at their peaks isn't really what matters because Zack died at a point in time where he had just begun gaining immense strength. He died protecting Cloud who lay on the ground unconscious. He went into a situation he knew he would die in just to protect Cloud. He died so Cloud could live and he knew he was doing it. He also didn't have any help in any of his battles any of the way. Comparing them at their peaks would be unfair.
Comparing them at all and gauging who was better isn't possible., because of the degree of fantasy involved and how much stronger time can make someone a comparison isn't possible.
HighwindPilot
White Mage
How so? Actually, I'm not quite sure I fully understand the scenario you present. In the Cloud-Sephiroth case, you have:
- Healthy Sephiroth getting stabbed by healthy Cloud.
- Weakened Sephiroth bats healthy Cloud back, stabs him and weakens him the same.
- Weakened Sephiroth is in the process of (presumably) finishing weakened Cloud.
- Weakened Cloud manages to overturn weakened Sephiroth.
How is Sephiroth at a disadvantage here? It sounds like you're stretching.
I see... But you thought, "Holy crap, Zach fought even with but ultimately did nothing to a half-enthused Sephiroth"? And before I get shot at, those claims are based on how seemingly effortless Sephiroth flung Zack down at the end. I don't see how it could be said that he truly tried during their fight when he followed it so casually.
Oh, and this is my favorite part... The real problem with Zack's death is that it allows his fans the privilege of fabrications about his potential. He had only just begun as much? Sorry, no, if we can't gauge his peak or anything else about his limit, then we don't know where he stood in comparison to his peak at the time of his death either.
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Apparent Amarant
Blue Mage
Responses in bold
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HighwindPilot
White Mage
How did I do so?
I provided clarification and explanation to the fact that Cloud was as screwed up as, if not worse than, Sephiroth (which was in response to SiL ignoring Cloud's suffering altogether).
Meanwhile, you claimed that in the midst of all the agony in both figures, the high and mighty Sephiroth was somehow at a disadvantage to the lowly Cloud and that Cloud therefore receives no merit? Might I add that this was done with no actual reasoning behind it, which is why I asked for it.
How are these two things comparable? How did I stretch? I'd still like a logical explanation behind your whole "disadvantage" perspective, if you don't mind.
And that's fine and dandy. But if this is so, we should really leave out things like "just beginning to gain incredible strength" if we truly don't know what the future would have held for him. I don't mind if what I said played into your point, I never refuted it, only suggested that the standard should be applied for any instance, whether it's for or against Zack.
And this is where we'll have to disagree once again. I fail to see how "luck" played a part in Cloud overturning Sephiroth in strength. What it does show is Cloud's latent potential. To support this, look at Sephiroth's reaction. He was in utter shock at the idea that Cloud could draw up that kind of force.
So that's when it usually comes up that "Sephiroth was weakened", to which I point out, "Cloud was weakened too", bringing us back to the beginning, in which I have to ask how Sephiroth was somehow at a disadvantage by getting stabbed first.
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Apparent Amarant
Blue Mage
He didn't beat him in a challenge of strength. He lifted him off the ground. They didn't actually battle.
To your second point. The comment you thought should be left out was not put in to say Zack would be stronger. It was put in to show that we have no idea what Zack's peak would have been. We do know he was nowhere near it because if someone like Cloud could get stronger then there is absolutely no reason why Zack couldn't. Zack actually had more done to him by Hojo then Cloud and Hojo referred to him as a superior sepcimen. So if we were going to say one's potential as an organism was high that's the only thing we would have to go with, but I dont think it is enough to say anything. I just think it shows Cloud wasn't stronger during CC.
He didn't defeat Sephiroth in battle. Maybe luck didn't play a part in him throwing him over the side, but it was certainly due to the fact that he was already injured that he didn't just fly back up and kill Cloud. I'm pretty positive that the scene isn't meant to portray immense strength from Cloud but instead explain how both the heroes and villain could be injured to the point of both heroes passing out, and tie in a flashback scene from FFVII and partially explain it. This is just my opinion though and doesn't really matter what matters is that peaks aren't comparable between the two.
I think it's pretty far-fetched to say Cloud was stronger during CC when it states in game that he is an inferior specimen. It's also just as far-fetched to say that Cloud didn't become stronger then Zack(before Zack died) in the events that took place after Zacks death. He obviously did, but comparing who was stronger makes no sense because they are from the same story but a different timeline. Cloud became stronger, but there is no reason to believe Zack couldn't become even stronger. He made Soldier 1st class. He was in the same rank as Sephiroth, Genesis, and Angeal and he defeated all three of them in battle. Some of them a couple times. There is no reason to believe him and Cloud would not have remained equals.
Cloud did become stronger though, but in the FF world infinite strength is attainable.
Everyone says Cloud beats Sephiroth alone in FFVII because of the last hit is the omnislash, but they dont actually battle. Just one move takes place, and Cloud and his WHOLE party have already wooped Sephiroths ass. So I still don't think he became strong enough to defeat him by himself until AC. In fact you have to defeat him with the party and then the battle between just those two starts and regardless of where your limit guage is it climbs to full until you can use it.
To your second point. The comment you thought should be left out was not put in to say Zack would be stronger. It was put in to show that we have no idea what Zack's peak would have been. We do know he was nowhere near it because if someone like Cloud could get stronger then there is absolutely no reason why Zack couldn't. Zack actually had more done to him by Hojo then Cloud and Hojo referred to him as a superior sepcimen. So if we were going to say one's potential as an organism was high that's the only thing we would have to go with, but I dont think it is enough to say anything. I just think it shows Cloud wasn't stronger during CC.
He didn't defeat Sephiroth in battle. Maybe luck didn't play a part in him throwing him over the side, but it was certainly due to the fact that he was already injured that he didn't just fly back up and kill Cloud. I'm pretty positive that the scene isn't meant to portray immense strength from Cloud but instead explain how both the heroes and villain could be injured to the point of both heroes passing out, and tie in a flashback scene from FFVII and partially explain it. This is just my opinion though and doesn't really matter what matters is that peaks aren't comparable between the two.
I think it's pretty far-fetched to say Cloud was stronger during CC when it states in game that he is an inferior specimen. It's also just as far-fetched to say that Cloud didn't become stronger then Zack(before Zack died) in the events that took place after Zacks death. He obviously did, but comparing who was stronger makes no sense because they are from the same story but a different timeline. Cloud became stronger, but there is no reason to believe Zack couldn't become even stronger. He made Soldier 1st class. He was in the same rank as Sephiroth, Genesis, and Angeal and he defeated all three of them in battle. Some of them a couple times. There is no reason to believe him and Cloud would not have remained equals.
Cloud did become stronger though, but in the FF world infinite strength is attainable.
Everyone says Cloud beats Sephiroth alone in FFVII because of the last hit is the omnislash, but they dont actually battle. Just one move takes place, and Cloud and his WHOLE party have already wooped Sephiroths ass. So I still don't think he became strong enough to defeat him by himself until AC. In fact you have to defeat him with the party and then the battle between just those two starts and regardless of where your limit guage is it climbs to full until you can use it.
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HighwindPilot
White Mage
I'd hate to "beat a dead horse", but it seems required. Cloud was injured too. Yes, he did not defeat Sephiroth in battle, but what I referred to was physical strength, or even grit or will - all of which are possible factors that were tested in their exchange.
Sephiroth was weakened, badly. While Cloud? He was stabbed and picked up with a sword that was lodged deeply through his chest. Despite this, he managed to overturn the 1st class SOLDIER, Sephiroth. Both were weakened, so I fail to see how that could be an excuse. Bear in mind also that Sephiroth had the help of Mako and Jenova cells as well (which contributed to his superiority in the first place).
I understand your point in that Sephiroth would have otherwise come back and beat him senseless (although this too is unknown), but why should it have come to that in the first place?
As you said, that is an opinion. My own interpretation is that the scene was meant as a testament to the strength Cloud had in him all along. His entire life, he struggled with insecurities that he wasn't strong, that he was too weak, etc...
Wasn't that a reoccuring theme during he and Tifa's lifestream trip? After they discovered the truth, didn't she use it as a means to convey to him how strong he's always been? Saying that he defeated the great Sephiroth and held his promise of protecting her in doing so? Based on things like this, I'm pretty positive they were going for that testament to strength. It's a reoccuring theme with his character.
How? When is this stated? They underwent the same Mako exposure/S Cell thing, it's just that Zack withstood it while Cloud didn't (Zack already had mako exposure ((which contributed to his strength)) so there was no real effect).
The rest I typically agree with, or never argued in the first place. Not once have I stated that Cloud was Zack's equal in CC, but there's a lot that could go into that (Zack's superiority over Cloud could be based on combat ability, experience, knowledge, so on) and they may not be drastically apart.
When you look at the strength (keep in mind, we've used this term ambiguously) Cloud displayed in overcoming Sephiroth, it speaks for his raw potential and maybe even his hidden value. After all, we don't necessarily know that Cloud is "weak" in CC. We just know that he didn't make SOLDIER, a fact that could very well be a cause of his obvious psychological issues, such as uncertainty, fear, or a lack of confidence. But again, I am not referring to him as Zack's equal in this time.
I agree that the comparison between the two is (for now) bunk. My original point was to imply that the ideal comparison would be of peaks. The rest was initially a response to SiL's neglective recollection of the incident.
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Edit: At the end of the battle in VII, both men, in their natural states, fought. As it was written, Cloud Omnislashed Sephiroth to defeat him in this one-on-one exchange. You mention that Cloud had party members. Um, and? Sephiroth was in two separate Demi-God forms. You mention that Sephiroth was weary--again, I find this consistent one-sided view of the situation so funny. Cloud was weary too. Or did he not fight the whole time? Yes, Cloud fairly defeated Sephiroth mano y mano in VII.
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Apparent Amarant
Blue Mage
Responses in bold. Thanks for the discussion. I think we will have to agree to disagree on some small things, but that's ok. I'm pretty exhausted of this debate.
Also in FF games almost all of the characters have potential to become super human.
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HighwindPilot
White Mage
I'm not gonna argue the first, since the fundamental disagreement regarding interpretation on certain scenes or occurences will merely cause a circular argument. I've pretty much explained everything I could about those scenes. I will point out just a few things... You say they're damage is unequal, but don't say how. You said Sephiroth was somehow at a disadvantage prior, but did not explain that. Lastly, you're ignoring the fact that Sephiroth had Mako Exposure/Jenova injections, which means a "handicap" was present to begin with.
Now...
Also, this does not go against every FF game--since when has acquisition of strength been at the heart of them each? It hasn't, but in Cloud's case, it's at the very root of his story.
My next MMA gym (which did not incorporate a TKD belt system) had a similar regime.
Now that we've gotten that silly question of credibility out of the way, let's keep in mind that Sephiroth at this point was twice a virtual DEMI-GOD, I'm sure his constant fighting more than equals the fact that Cloud was a mere human (with J-cells and mako).
It wasn't an FMV because they probably wanted to give the gamer the satisfaction of doing it themselves. They couldn't actually let you fight Sephiroth because doing so would mean watering him down to beatable stats. Why would you want your mega-villain to be deflated from the endless imagination?
--
A nice debate, regardless.
Now...
That's why there's the idea that it's latent or potential. Just because he has more to gain doesn't mean he wasn't already strong. By this logic, Zack did have a cap on his potential because he spent all of CC getting stronger, did he not?
Also, this does not go against every FF game--since when has acquisition of strength been at the heart of them each? It hasn't, but in Cloud's case, it's at the very root of his story.
That's exactly what I said...
Belt Tests in my old MMA required 3 five minute rounds straight. The criteria included: A technical aspect, in which we basically did burn outs of kicks and strikes on the heavy bag. A physical aspect - in which we did some kind of physical training (push ups, cardio, ab excersizes). And a self-defense/sparring aspect, in which we had to defend against some type of prompt, respond accordingly, and then break out into a full on sparring match, which would usually include exhausting amounts of grappling. Of course, he liked to "forget to check his watch" often, so we would go for 25 minutes at times.
My next MMA gym (which did not incorporate a TKD belt system) had a similar regime.
Now that we've gotten that silly question of credibility out of the way, let's keep in mind that Sephiroth at this point was twice a virtual DEMI-GOD, I'm sure his constant fighting more than equals the fact that Cloud was a mere human (with J-cells and mako).
Oh please! Seriously? So if I beat Emerald Weapon in one round, it's suddenly not a battle? The fight was completely set up as a match that Cloud was written to win. Thus, giving justice to their entire history together and the entire climatic build up.
It wasn't an FMV because they probably wanted to give the gamer the satisfaction of doing it themselves. They couldn't actually let you fight Sephiroth because doing so would mean watering him down to beatable stats. Why would you want your mega-villain to be deflated from the endless imagination?
--
A nice debate, regardless.
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SOLDIERis1337
The Immaculate
Except for the fact that in every display of the Nibelheim incident, from FF VII to Last Order to Before Crisis to Crisis Core, Cloud has Sephiroth practically in half. His spine was severed, to argue this is to say the entire compilation is wrong.
Except for the fact that Cloud was run through by a much, much smaller instrument, and the angling of it prevented it from going anywhere near his spine. People in our world have survived being run through in the way Cloud was, no one has survived virtual bisection. Cloud's injury is nothing compared to the massacre Sephiroth received, that's a simple fact.
You can't possibly think that if Cloud had ran in their and faced Sephiroth head on as Zack did that he'd win, can you? Cloud would have been in one inch cubed pieces in about .5 seconds.
I'm afraid the people who created the games know more about them than you, champ. From the CC Ultimania character profiles:
Genesis being Sephiroth's equal is canon, whether you like it or not.
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I think one of the main underlying themes of FFVII was Cloud surpassing Zack as he developed his own identity. In light of Crisis Core, this is one of the main things I get from the game when I think about Cloud's development, anyway. I think if they were to fight (assuming Cloud as he is at the end of Advent Children) then Cloud would win, although it would be a close thing.
As for the whole Genesis vs. Sephiroth sub-debate going on...I'm not entirely sure who would win that one. Evidence does point to Sephiroth coming out on top, but...well, maybe not. Who knows what would have happened if
Genesis is considerably more driven than Sephiroth as well, and that counts for a lot. Sephiroth is mentally imbalanced, and I have to wonder if
Genesis wants to beat Sephiroth - or he wanted to initially. Sephiroth could care less, from all appearances.
I don't think basing Cloud and Zack's strength on who they've beaten is particularly practical. If Crisis Core was released before Final Fantasy VII, I'm not so sure events would have turned out the way they did. Not to mention Sephiroth is at a totally different level of power in Crisis Core and FFVII...and no, that doesn't mean he's more powerful in FFVII.
I'm not so sure about that debate. I'd like to think Genesis is stronger, because he's an infinetely better character than Sephiroth, but...well, who knows.
As for the whole Genesis vs. Sephiroth sub-debate going on...I'm not entirely sure who would win that one. Evidence does point to Sephiroth coming out on top, but...well, maybe not. Who knows what would have happened if
Angeal hadn't of stopped their fight in Crisis Core?
he would have even turned evil at all if it wasn't for Genesis' influence.
I don't think basing Cloud and Zack's strength on who they've beaten is particularly practical. If Crisis Core was released before Final Fantasy VII, I'm not so sure events would have turned out the way they did. Not to mention Sephiroth is at a totally different level of power in Crisis Core and FFVII...and no, that doesn't mean he's more powerful in FFVII.
He's sane in Crisis Core when he faces Genesis, and whilst that fight appears to be going in his favour, its still inconclusive. He takes Genesis by surprise when he fights back, that does NOT mean Genesis wouldn't have been able to recover from it.
I'm not so sure about that debate. I'd like to think Genesis is stronger, because he's an infinetely better character than Sephiroth, but...well, who knows.
Apparent Amarant
Blue Mage
Highwind Pilot I had some rebuttals, but decided to can. Good debate I'm sure it could have went on a long time. It wasn't a question of qualification just so you know just trying to point out that Sephiroth did have the hard end of the battle.
Soldieris1337 you make some excellent points, but just because Genesis has "combat abilities that rank equal to Sephiroth" does not make him his equal in battle. I believe Sephiroth would win the battle the way they were in Crisis Core and they illustrate this in an excellent FMV scene. Genesis's inability to equal or surpass Sephiroth is where much of his drive comes from as a SOLDIER. I really hope they bring back Genesis. He could become stronger then he was(probably) and make an excellent villain. Sephiroth was experimented on earliest though so it only makes sense that he would stay a step ahead of Genesis.
This should be in a separate thread, but what made Zack and Cloud different from the other three? What was done to those three that had not been done to them? Sometime I forget the experiments exactly.
Soldieris1337 you make some excellent points, but just because Genesis has "combat abilities that rank equal to Sephiroth" does not make him his equal in battle. I believe Sephiroth would win the battle the way they were in Crisis Core and they illustrate this in an excellent FMV scene. Genesis's inability to equal or surpass Sephiroth is where much of his drive comes from as a SOLDIER. I really hope they bring back Genesis. He could become stronger then he was(probably) and make an excellent villain. Sephiroth was experimented on earliest though so it only makes sense that he would stay a step ahead of Genesis.
This should be in a separate thread, but what made Zack and Cloud different from the other three? What was done to those three that had not been done to them? Sometime I forget the experiments exactly.
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HighwindPilot
White Mage
Wow, really?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upmW7r4mEf0
Pause at 1:33 and 1:37.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MbnKSh7iYWQ
Pause at 1:28 and 1:32.
The problem with Last Order is that it suffers from slightly inconsistent animation. Looking at Sephiroth's back, the angle of Cloud's blade is slightly more horizontal, but would still only clip a lumbar column at most, still not nearly "slicing him in half". Meanwhile, the front angle poses Cloud's sword as much more diagonal and to the right.
Sephiroth's spine was severed? By arguing with this, I'm suggesting that you're wrong, don't twist that. The animations are clearly not as you described, and if you think that either scene depicts him as "sliced in half" or even with a "severed spine" from that angle... We can pull up anatomy charts next if you'd like.
Meanwhile, pause the first video at 2:16 and 2:20, and the second at 3:05, 3:11, and 3:15. Again, inconsistent animations in "Last Order", but both sources clearly depict Cloud's stab wound as centered in the body. Care to guess how big the average thoratic column is of the spine? IT is more likely to be split.
Great, "except for the fact that" Sephiroth received no virtual bisection. People have survived gaping wounds like his as well. And you know what the problem with "smaller stabs" is? The pressure is concentrated on whatever it hits. Xiphoid Process - we're talking a puncture to the heart. Thoratic column of the vertebrae? Crumbled. Hell, let's say it only lodged through his rectus abdominus? Do you know what your core is in relation to the body? What it would "take" (especially since you want to talk realism) to kneel into the sword like that and grip it?
The fact is, they were both impaled. One has mako and J cells, the other is a human - I'm sure this more than makes up for whatever other difference.
So can we move on?
Sorry, I said this? Where? No, but obviously we know who "won" between both in a weakened state. Which, more or less, is pretty equivalent to the fact that Zack did virtually nothing to an unenthused Sephiroth in said charge.
Lol, sorry, Vivi is what age again? Didn't one "official source" say 9, while the timeline suggested 6 months?
That's why I prefer deduction in this scene. Was it Sephiroth that resorted to materia use? Was it Genesis that sat defending the whole time? And who was it that willingly fought both in the first place? Who was it that ended up cut? They're equal in that they're both 1st Class, nothing more.
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Apparent Amarant
Blue Mage
Highwind Pilot do you think Cloud was stronger then Zack in Crisis Core?
HighwindPilot
White Mage
No. As I've said, I do not think Cloud is Zack's equal in Crisis Core, and especially not stronger than him. But as I suggested before, there's a lot that could factor in to this, such as Zack's combat experience, knowledge, training, mako exposure, etc... Still, that's not to take anything away from him, I mean there's a reason why Cloud wasn't exposed to all of this right?
What I might be inclined to think, however, is that Cloud had a lot of latent strength in CC that may have rivaled Zack, and that he wasn't as weak as has been suggested. I think what held Cloud back in the CC era was, more than anything, his crappy psyche. The kid had serious issues.
IIRC, Zack, like general SOLDIER members, had Mako exposure. Cloud, initially, did not. Sephiroth was injected with Jenova Cells at birth and exposed to mako at some point. Angeal and Genesis were injected with similar cells and exposed to mako as well, but something went wrong that led to their degeneration (I forget what). Later, when Hojo collected Cloud and Zack, he exposed them both to Mako and injected them with S/Jenova Cells.
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