Cloud's Love Triangle - The LTD of FFVII

[Dragon Mage]

I would just like to specifically address this quote here which I neglected to do because I was pressed for time:

The second date is because you decided to increase the level for Tifa by decreasing the default level between Aerith and Cloud.

LOL

This is so not true. There are decisions throughout the game that can increase AND decrease all 4 scores. It's not like you're whittling away Aerith's score and there's no possible way to just add up numbers to Tifa's score until her score is higher. In fact, the only part where you actually HAVE to whittle away both Aerith's and Tifa's scores is so that Yuffie and Barret's scores can compete -- there are not as many options to add to Barret's and Yuffie's scores as there are for Aerith and Tifa.

xD

I may have indeed lowered Aerith's score by my "first option always" decision, but there's really no need to have to lower her score on purpose. Some options will detract from her score no matter what you do, same with the others in a few decisions. But it's perfectly easy to just increase Tifa's score so that it's higher than Aerith's without going out of your way to decrease Aerith's score.

The options you pick to get Aerith, are default to all characters. You don't have to pick to show romance to Aerith to get Aerith, do you? No, you go through the story being "nice" to who ever and whenever you are shown an option to pick from.

Well of course you don't slap Aerith in the face or anything like that, I was just trying to make a point. There's no need to get angry over it, jeez.

You have to be considerably "different" (since you think "mean" isn't suitable here) in the game to Aerith in order to finally get a date with Tifa. That's all I meant.

Um.... there's no possible way to play the game without somehow, in some way, increasing or decreasing Aerith's, Tifa's, Yuffie's and Barret's scores. Impossible. There's no "free pass" option. Whatever choice you make WILL affect the scores. So, I'm rather confused how you say that is otherwise.

xD I wasn't getting angry over anything, I was making a joke.

Okay, well "different" isn't the same as being a jagoff. I'm a naturally sarcastic person. I can't help it. I hear someone say something that could be taken a much different way, I have to say it. So does that mean I'm being snobby or mean when I select sarcastic replies in games? Not at all -- that's just what I do. There are a lot of reasons behind the way people respond, and the answer isn't always "because they're mean" or "because they're petty".

Okay, so you agree. Aerith is default. Do you know what default means? Its in the creator's own words, she's the normal date out of them all. But if you want Tifa, you have to really try and show romance to her.

You don't have to do that to Aerith. :/

Please quote me in full when you use quotes. Aerith is NOT default. In choosing the first option every time, I actually lowered her score several times, and randomly bumped it up several times; same with Tifa and Barret and Yuffie. It was like THE mixed-message relationship. XD

And no, you don't actually have to "go out of your way" to show affection to Tifa. Did you READ what I said? Had I actually selected one or two options differently, I would've gotten Tifa. When I totaled it all up, Aerith's score was only 3 points higher than Tifa's, if memory serves. So if I HAD selected differently in just one or two choices, I would've gotten Tifa.

And I would've done that without trying, either, since the first option wasn't always the one I liked best. You choose what you like in a situation like that -- in my case, I would've gotten Tifa had I chosen once, instead of going along with the first option. That's hardly going out of my way to get Tifa.

So you didn't deliberately pick to give Tifa the flower? You didn't deliberately take Tifa's underwear and you didn't deliberately say she's your girlfriend?

I find that hard to believe as you picked to show romance between them. :/

Um.... were any of those the first options? The first time I played, I gave Marlene the flower. The second time I played, I gave Tifa the flower. Why? To jazz it up. Not be repetitive. I chose. I had no idea at the time that it would add to Tifa's score, or that it would result in extra dialogue. I chose answers that I liked if I didn't like the first option, and that happened to mean I got Tifa.
Big deal.
Woo.
It's a party.
I never once tried to say, "I'm gonna get TIFA this time!" In fact, I was surprised I got Tifa. I had expected it to be Aerith -- I thought that was a whole scripted scene, absent of any player influence. Only after, when I looked up a walkthrough, did I realize that all those replies determined the date.

It seems very unlikely you didn't try to get Tifa since you have to consciously make the decisions to act romantic toward her.

First, link your sources.

Second, I'll assume this is from some dating guide.

Dating.

Guide.

You know what those look like, right? They say, "Do this, this, and this to get that." EVERY scenario is listed like that, including Aerith's. To look at the gamefaq's guide, it looks like you have to conciously go out of your way to not say anything to Aerith that will decrease her score, and to say everything to increase her score.

You don't need to select every option to increase her score and avoid every option that decreases her score. Same with the other three. Just because it's listed so comprehensively doesn't mean that you must make an exerted effort to get that particular outcome. You only really need the date guide anyway to get Yuffie and Barret -- which is what I used it for. Barret's date? HIL-ARIOUS!

I can use this same argument against you: I can quote a section of this guide with some of the detailed options you must pick to increase Aerith's score and say, "It seems very unlikely you didn't try to get Aerith since you have to consciously make the decisions to act romantic toward her."

It doesn't work that way. The Player chooses which options they like best and if that option adds to Tifa's or Aerith's scores, so be it. But no extreme effort is required. You don't consciously think, while playing the game, "Well, I want to date HER so I'll say everything nice to her." No. That doesn't happen. You just choose the response that you like best.

What? So if its not significant to the Cloti side, its not...important? I'm sorry, but how does that make sense...?

It doesn't matter if evidence isn't considered significant enough to one side of two sides. If we left what's important to be determined by one side and not the other, what's left to debate, hmm?

But going by that, what you and the Clotis think is significant or important to your "side", isn't really because its not significant to the Clerith's? Right...?

I'm talking about the same fictional sex scene I and Cali quoted and the same fictional sex scene we have been discussing recently. The one where Clotis think Cloud and Tifa did the nasty on sharp pointy rocks. :/

Yes...a lot of crazy stuff was cut, so why do Clotis like to use it? Could we also discuss that Tifa wasn't even suppose to be in the game if Clotis like to use pieces of cut story and scenes that doesn't really exist (I'm talking about the Highwind scene )? If that holds any relevance to the discussion, this Tifa tidbit should. Right?

Why bring up stuff that's been cut out of the story? Obviously it doesn't exist anymore and was decided it was bad for story. Why do Clotis hang onto a draft?

No, the C/A date is significant to one side and not the other; The C/T date is significant to one side and not the other. The two are mutually exclusive. Just because it means a lot to you doesn't mean it'll have the same meaning to everyone else.

And this is exactly my point. Each side is likely to put incredible amounts of power in the least of actions. For example:

Cloud: Tifa, please pass the butter.
Tifa: Of course, Cloud.
Fan: OMFG MAKE ZE BABIES!!!!

See my point? And yes, what the Cloti's think is incredibly telling may not mean the same to the Clerith's. And what the Clarret's think is incredibly telling of their pairing won't mean the same to either Cloti's or Clerith's. This is what I've been saying all along. Too much is left up to personal interpretation, and won't translate the same implied meaning to one side as it does to the other.

Sure a lot of crazy stuff was cut, so why do the Clerith's like to use it? I've only seen mention of that stable scene ONCE. And that was two years ago. Yet I've seen on this very thread mention of scenes between Aerith and Cloud that I've never even heard before. The answer to your question is that BOTH SIDES, no matter what who they are, will resort to some truly desperate measures in attempts to prove that their pairing is the right one. This always happens. Always. Just ignore it and go on your way.

I could also argue that Aerith wasn't supposed to be in the game because she was supposed to be Sephiroth's sister, and since he has no sister, Aerith's couldn't possibly exist. It's a perpetual spiral that gets both sides nowhere, so lets not go down that yellow brick road, aye? Saves us both time, I promise. And the Highwind scene DOES exist, what it's implications are is up to the player. Needless to say, those implications can be.... exotic.

And will you please knock it off with the "Why do the Cloti's do this?" and "Why do the Cloti's do that?" What you're claiming that Cloti's do is, in fact, what every pairing does, not just limited to FF7. This includes Clerith's. I've once seen someone actually trying to verify the Clerith pairing by quoting a Clerith fanfic. That was about the point I started bashing my head on the table. I only brought up that cut scene that was in the draft because I was unsure of what you were referring to when you said, "romantic scene." I don't see the Highwind scene to be very erotic, so I was rather confused.

Don't look too much into it. I'm not claiming that it supports the pairing, or any pairing for that matter. Please remember that my being here is to argue that any pairing isn't very canon, and it's the individual opinion that really determines what is and isn't canon. For example, I don't like tragic couples. I just don't. It's a thing. So I like the idea of Cloud and Tifa better than I like the idea of Cloud and Aerith. Did I cite any information for that? Of course not. That's just my decision. I don't really feel the need to try and prove it to anyone because -- in all honesty -- your opinion on the outcome of the game will determine which pairing you like. And no one can convince you to like something you dislike -- like you trying to convince me that tragic couples are better. It isn't going to work. And there you have it.

I wasn't directing it personally at you, but at the Cloti mindset. I thought it was clear, I'm sorry if I had confused you. I hope I cleared myself up.

Yes and no. We are in agreement, but you misunderstand that Aerith's date is default. Its only optional once you force another date out of the situation so you no longer get the default date.

Creators have said it. Unless they come out again saying otherwise, that's how it is and will remain to be so...

Fair enough, no harm done, but know that a rabid fan mindset does not distinguish between the pairing at hand. Have you SEEN the debate raging between the romance between Yukimura and Kunoichi? INSANITY. It isn't even a game like that, it's a hack 'n slash game for crying out loud!

Aerith's date is NOT default -- it's just easier. If it were default, I'd have to go out of my way to make it otherwise: Which I've clearly already established is not the case. And the creators didn't say it was default, they said it was basically typical. Not the same as default.

Wait, may I ask something? Who are you to say it doesn't make "proof"? Its important enough to discuss in the LTD.

It seems like nit-picking to me....

That is an entirely different comparison, Dragon Mage. Please don't play games with me.

Your cat comparison isn't a game created by a certain someone in which he/she clearly stated that certain "thing" was default and more normal than the others. Your comparison is that of personal opinion, but in this case the creators (the people who made the game lol) said it was default and normal.

Your comparison would have been better if it was, for example, God who had picked a cat.

It can be ended. Its the matter of which side will learn and accept? Oh...that and when SE/Nomura will stop trolling people and milking FF7. xD

I say it doesn't make proof on the basis that I'm not trying to push ANY pairing here. It really is rather pointless to discuss in the LTD because it all depends on YOUR -- the player's -- personal choices and likes. We OBVIOUSLY know where allegiances stand here, so it's like saying that what you like is better than others because you like it.

No, it isn't an entirely different comparison. It's very true. Let's say that I like Coke. Whenever given the option, I drink Coke instead of Pepsi. Then I turn around and say that because I selected Coke, it's the real soda drink and Pepsi isn't a real soda. This is exactly what trying to use the date scene to prove a pairing is like. It's making an arbitrary claim based solely on biased evidence. You can't hope to prove something with that kind of evidence -- and mind you, this means Cloti's as well as Clerith's, no sides are exempt here.

And again. No one said it was default. That's just how you interpreted it. I interpreted it differently.

Which again leads me back to the same thing as before -- such evidence is so incredibly swayed by the individual's interpretation that it may as well be no proof at all.

I know how the LTD can be ended. It can be ended right now, in fact.

How about both sides just agree that both girls have the hots for Cloud and go draw funny pictures of them making him wear a dress? How about us fans, like the characters we so dearly love, just get along and not fuss about it any more? The day THAT happens is the day the LTD will finally come to a close -- it will no longer be needed.

 

[Terra Branford]

Oh my gosh...I'm so sorry for the long post, but it had to be. Also, if there are any mistakes and caused confusion, I'm sorry. Please tell me where and I will clear it up

Also, If I missed anyway quotes please tell me, really. My Writer freaked out and doubled up on my writing. I double checked it 15 times and I think I got all the quotes. But if I didn't, just repost the quote and I will answer

And if I doubled up on a quote and answer, again sorry. Writer freaked out on me >.>

I would just like to specifically address this quote here which I neglected to do because I was pressed for time:

LOL
This is so not true. There are decisions throughout the game that can increase AND decrease all 4 scores. It's not like you're whittling away Aerith's score and there's no possible way to just add up numbers to Tifa's score until her score is higher. In fact, the only part where you actually HAVE to whittle away both Aerith's and Tifa's scores is so that Yuffie and Barret's scores can compete -- there are not as many options to add to Barret's and Yuffie's scores as there are for Aerith and Tifa.

xD

And? Where have I said there weren't options to decrease and increase? Have you not been reading my posts?

The point is that Aerith's date, by the creator's word, is default/normal. She has 50 points and Tifa 30 (I do believe?) and in order to increase Tifa's points, you have to consciously make romantic scenes between them which decreases the default/normal date, which is Aerith's.

I may have indeed lowered Aerith's score by my "first option always" decision, but there's really no need to have to lower her score on purpose. Some options will detract from her score no matter what you do, same with the others in a few decisions. But it's perfectly easy to just increase Tifa's score so that it's higher than Aerith's without going out of your way to decrease Aerith's score.

Um.... there's no possible way to play the game without somehow, in some way, increasing or decreasing Aerith's, Tifa's, Yuffie's and Barret's scores. Impossible. There's no "free pass" option. Whatever choice you make WILL affect the scores. So, I'm rather confused how you say that is otherwise.

xD I wasn't getting angry over anything, I was making a joke.

When you make a choice, its your choice and you are doing it on "purpose". When I decide to take a left instead of a right, that's my choice and I took left. I therefore deliberately took left, right?

I don't see how the creator's words aren't enough...

Okay, well "different" isn't the same as being a jagoff. I'm a naturally sarcastic person. I can't help it. I hear someone say something that could be taken a much different way, I have to say it. So does that mean I'm being snobby or mean when I select sarcastic replies in games? Not at all -- that's just what I do. There are a lot of reasons behind the way people respond, and the answer isn't always "because they're mean" or "because they're petty".

I didn't say you had to be a "jagoff" I was just trying to make a point. You have to be considerably different (and some points kinda rude to her) to increase Tifa's points.

Sarcasm is rather rude, whether you want to believe it or not. But you took a meaning that wasn't there in my posts. I was making a point that you have to be "different" to Aerith, and that is very much true.

Please quote me in full when you use quotes. Aerith is NOT default. In choosing the first option every time, I actually lowered her score several times, and randomly bumped it up several times; same with Tifa and Barret and Yuffie. It was like THE mixed-message relationship. XD

I did quote you in full, I push the quotes down so the person I am quoting knows I'm making a direct reply to each piece of their post. I left nothing in your post unquoted except for the replies to Cali.

So you deny even the maker's words? Seems kinda of non-sensible to me. Yes, you can argue with the Creator's word, but it won't get you anywhere because their word is over ours.

And no, you don't actually have to "go out of your way" to show affection to Tifa. Did you READ what I said? Had I actually selected one or two options differently, I would've gotten Tifa. When I totaled it all up, Aerith's score was only 3 points higher than Tifa's, if memory serves. So if I HAD selected differently in just one or two choices, I would've gotten Tifa.

I don't think you understand....

You made conscious, deliberate decisions to (whether you will admit or not) to get Tifa's, Yuffie's and or Barret's, date. As my example above used:

If I decided to take a left instead of a right, that's my choice and I took left. I therefore deliberately took left, right? I made the decision to go left instead of right.

Its a choice that you made in the game upon thinking about it and coming up with a decision. A natural run through the game, first time of course, will lead you to run a "default" date (in the creator's words) with Aerith.

When I first played? I gave the flower to Marlene because she was a little girl (I actually hated Aerith until my fourth play-through mind you), didn't take Tifa's underwear because that was friggin' weird (but did a second run through) to do and said "yes, she's my girlfriend" to Aerith. Yet what was the date I got by default? Aerith's because that's how the creator's wanted you to have it. Even they have said it.

And I would've done that without trying, either, since the first option wasn't always the one I liked best. You choose what you like in a situation like that -- in my case, I would've gotten Tifa had I chosen once, instead of going along with the first option. That's hardly going out of my way to get Tifa.

You picked the options suitable to your likings for Tifa, that is the case. I don't think I'll get you to actually say it, but that is the case. Those choices were created on purpose so one, if they tried, didn't have to get the story default date with Aerith.

No one makes your decisions, do they? If they do, I'm sorry but I will go ahead and assume you weren't forced into picking those options. :/

Um.... were any of those the first options? The first time I played, I gave Marlene the flower. The second time I played, I gave Tifa the flower. Why? To jazz it up. Not be repetitive. I chose. I had no idea at the time that it would add to Tifa's score, or that it would result in extra dialogue. I chose answers that I liked if I didn't like the first option, and that happened to mean I got Tifa.
Big deal.
Woo.
It's a party.
I never once tried to say, "I'm gonna get TIFA this time!" In fact, I was surprised I got Tifa. I had expected it to be Aerith -- I thought that was a whole scripted scene, absent of any player influence. Only after, when I looked up a walkthrough, did I realize that all those replies determined the date.

Now please, there is no need to get upset. I'm just trying to explain it to you as you are trying to explain what you see it as to me.

You>play game>picks between options set before you>makes decision>gets result.

You consciously made the decision to pick Tifa's more "romantic" scenes. It has been stated by the Creator's words. Why argue it? It makes no sense....

First, link your sources.

Second, I'll assume this is from some dating guide.

Dating.

Guide.

You know what those look like, right? They say, "Do this, this, and this to get that." EVERY scenario is listed like that, including Aerith's. To look at the gamefaq's guide, it looks like you have to conciously go out of your way to not say anything to Aerith that will decrease her score, and to say everything to increase her score.

You don't need to select every option to increase her score and avoid every option that decreases her score. Same with the other three. Just because it's listed so comprehensively doesn't mean that you must make an exerted effort to get that particular outcome. You only really need the date guide anyway to get Yuffie and Barret -- which is what I used it for. Barret's date? HIL-ARIOUS!

You can find it anywhere, but I'm terribly sorry. I had assumed since you were talking about the dates, that you knew what it was. Here is where I got it from. I just searched google and said "FF7 how to get different dates".

http://www.cavesofnarshe.com/ff7/dating.php

Actually, thank goodness you brought that up. I was waiting for it because I couldn't quiet word it right. Here's hoping I can do it now.

You can get Aerith's date by default with options that doesn't even involve her romantically, save the "no, she's not my girlfriend".

Isn't it weird that in order to get Aerith, you have to be nice to a little girl, not take someone's underwear (which I did once in the second run through of the game and still got Aerith because of her default points) and that was all. I didn't even have her on my team! It was Cloud, Tifa and Red XIII...yet, me being nice to a child, not taking/taking underwear and saying "no" and "yes" to a girlfriend option, I still got Aerith.

That therein backs up the creator's word that Aerith is default. But since you really want me to post it:

Aerith's points:

When you are on the train to blow up the second reactor, get yourself caught by the security lockdown.

During the escape from the Church, when Aeris is alone against the guards, save her so that she needn't fight at all.

Do not engage in the Wutai sidequest until after the date.

Finally (and this is an intended repetition of the general guidelines), choose Aeris to accompany you and Barret when going to see Dyne in Corel prison: you'll get the most affinity benefit from this choice of any in the game

Nothing romantic, just taking her with you, meeting her, saving her life and...

The only thing you have to be "different" about to Tifa, is the "No way!" option and only that.

So you saying: "To look at the gamefaq's guide, it looks like you have to conciously go out of your way to not say anything to Aerith that will decrease her score, and to say everything to increase her score." isn't quiet right.

It takes a LOT to get Aerith to not be the default anymore. Even if you pick to take Tifa's underwear and say "Yes" to the boyfriend question, Aerith's points are still higher than Tifa's and will still be the default date.

I can use this same argument against you: I can quote a section of this guide with some of the detailed options you must pick to increase Aerith's score and say, "It seems very unlikely you didn't try to get Aerith since you have to consciously make the decisions to act romantic toward her."

It doesn't work that way. The Player chooses which options they like best and if that option adds to Tifa's or Aerith's scores, so be it. But no extreme effort is required. You don't consciously think, while playing the game, "Well, I want to date HER so I'll say everything nice to her." No. That doesn't happen. You just choose the response that you like best.

You don't have to quote it, as I have just above.

No you can't, because your "argument" isn't good at all. I don't think you understand what "default" means and why Aerith's points are higher than the others. :/

There is your mistake. You don't have to act romantic to Aerith to get her. You do for Tifa.

The only option that seems "mean" to Tifa and or "romantic" toward CxA, is the "No way!" option. You're proving my point for me.

So you are arguing against the creator's words...?

Oh, I see where you are confused. Its not that the player is subconsciously say "lol imma gonna date Tifa/Aerith!" the player is sub/consciously choosing the option leaning toward their favorite character to be romantic toward her. But, that's not the case for Aerith because there are no options to pick that lean down her in a verbal/text appearance. The only one that is there, is the "No way!" option. The rest are options to just save her life and meeting her. :/

But this is where you will say "well then, the same can be said for Aerith!" and here is my answer: No it can't.

You don't have to be romantic to Aerith to get her. You don't have to be mean/different/ruder/sarcastic to anyone to get Aerith. You do for Tifa.

No, the C/A date is significant to one side and not the other; The C/T date is significant to one side and not the other. The two are mutually exclusive. Just because it means a lot to you doesn't mean it'll have the same meaning to everyone else.

And you decided to say "no" for what exactly? That's exactly as I said you were saying:

What? So if its not significant to the Cloti side, its not...important? I'm sorry, but how does that make sense...?

Seems the same as you just said. Why did you answer "no" again? You are saying its not important to the discussion if its not important to both sides.

That is what you said. If you had meant something else, then please elaborate on it. Because as it is now, that's what you said.

And this is exactly my point. Each side is likely to put incredible amounts of power in the least of actions. For example:

Cloud: Tifa, please pass the butter.
Tifa: Of course, Cloud.
Fan: OMFG MAKE ZE BABIES!!!!

See my point? And yes, what the Cloti's think is incredibly telling may not mean the same to the Clerith's. And what the Clarret's think is incredibly telling of their pairing won't mean the same to either Cloti's or Clerith's. This is what I've been saying all along. Too much is left up to personal interpretation, and won't translate the same implied meaning to one side as it does to the other.

Bad comparison. A date and its outcome and whether or not one date is default or not, is very much important. Regardless of what side may feel differently.

Sure a lot of crazy stuff was cut, so why do the Clerith's like to use it? I've only seen mention of that stable scene ONCE. And that was two years ago. Yet I've seen on this very thread mention of scenes between Aerith and Cloud that I've never even heard before. The answer to your question is that BOTH SIDES, no matter what who they are, will resort to some truly desperate measures in attempts to prove that their pairing is the right one. This always happens. Always. Just ignore it and go on your way.

What exactly do the Clerith's hang onto that has been cut? You have tried to twist my own argument against me and its failing.

Oh wait, I think I misunderstood for a second just now xD

Do you mean when they just discuss "cut" scenes just to discuss it? Or do you mean they use the cut scenes as I'm saying the Clotis do/did? That is different from actually "using" the scene to try and prove something, as the Clotis do. But please, link me to this supposed thread that exists on the CxA forums (since I know that's what you are talking about) so I may see myself.

I could also argue that Aerith wasn't supposed to be in the game because she was supposed to be Sephiroth's sister, and since he has no sister, Aerith's couldn't possibly exist. It's a perpetual spiral that gets both sides nowhere, so lets not go down that yellow brick road, aye? Saves us both time, I promise. And the Highwind scene DOES exist, what it's implications are is up to the player. Needless to say, those implications can be.... exotic.

If the Cleriths do as you say as the Clotis like to do, it would be different. You have missed the point.

When I said "we could discuss Tifa not being in the original game" it was directed at the Cloti mindset thinking a cut scene where they had sex matters, then I said the tidbit I had brought forth should also matter if this is the case to the Clotis.

I could also argue that Aerith wasn't supposed to be in the game because she was supposed to be Sephiroth's sister, and since he has no sister, Aerith's couldn't possibly exist.

What? That doesn't even make sense and doesn't even remotely come close to my Tifa point. She'd exist either way since she existed as Sephy's sister in the original draft. But since you missed what I meant, here is a clarification:

Since Clotis think a cut scene matters, then should Clerith's use the cut story of Tifa never even existing, against them?

Your point made absolutely no sense since either way Aerith existed in the story somehow. Her being Sephy's sister wouldn't have changed a thing. :/

And will you please knock it off with the "Why do the Cloti's do this?" and "Why do the Cloti's do that?" What you're claiming that Cloti's do is, in fact, what every pairing does, not just limited to FF7. This includes Clerith's. I've once seen someone actually trying to verify the Clerith pairing by quoting a Clerith fanfic. That was about the point I started bashing my head on the table. I only brought up that cut scene that was in the draft because I was unsure of what you were referring to when you said, "romantic scene." I don't see the Highwind scene to be very erotic, so I was rather confused.

What at I doing wrong...? I'm not trying to upset you, I call Clotis because that's what they are.

Clotis do think this and that. Cleriths think this and do that. I call them Clotis as that's what they are as Cleriths are Cleriths and Seperiths (?) are Seperiths. And your point? I never said Cleriths' don't, Ederras' don't, Lockras' don't or any of that.

You have jumped to a conclusion on my meanings and saw something that just wasn't there. I never said the Cleriths' don't do it, please stop trying to put words in my mouth. >.<

Yes, and I had corrected myself and made myself clear about your views on the Highwind scene and the cut sex scene. Or so I thought I had since you didn't say anything else about it...

Don't look too much into it. I'm not claiming that it supports the pairing, or any pairing for that matter. Please remember that my being here is to argue that any pairing isn't very canon, and it's the individual opinion that really determines what is and isn't canon. For example, I don't like tragic couples. I just don't. It's a thing. So I like the idea of Cloud and Tifa better than I like the idea of Cloud and Aerith. Did I cite any information for that? Of course not. That's just my decision. I don't really feel the need to try and prove it to anyone because -- in all honesty -- your opinion on the outcome of the game will determine which pairing you like. And no one can convince you to like something you dislike -- like you trying to convince me that tragic couples are better. It isn't going to work. And there you have it.

I very much like both pairings and both characters. I have loved Tifa since the start and hated Aerith from the start. Though now I like her...You're right. No one can convince me which I don't like since I like them both.

But, this doesn't mean there can't be a canon out of the two.

Fair enough, no harm done, but know that a rabid fan mindset does not distinguish between the pairing at hand. Have you SEEN the debate raging between the romance between Yukimura and Kunoichi? INSANITY. It isn't even a game like that, it's a hack 'n slash game for crying out loud!

I don't even know who those two are.

But I will take your word that its pretty bad! ^.^

Aerith's date is NOT default -- it's just easier. If it were default, I'd have to go out of my way to make it otherwise: Which I've clearly already established is not the case. And the creators didn't say it was default, they said it was basically typical. Not the same as default.

But it is. Its not just something I or Cleriths' think, its actually stated. It cannot be argued or disproved, for its the creator's words, not ours.

Its default because of the default set they gave to Aerith and the difficulty -- no matter how hard and or easy that difficulty is to the player -- to get another date so you don't get the default date.

It is something the creators have said and did on purpose because that was their intention and has even been backed by their own word.

I say it doesn't make proof on the basis that I'm not trying to push ANY pairing here. It really is rather pointless to discuss in the LTD because it all depends on YOUR -- the player's -- personal choices and likes. We OBVIOUSLY know where allegiances stand here, so it's like saying that what you like is better than others because you like it.

See, that's what isn't very true. It has a canon couple, but each side will not care how clear it is to the other side's thinking.

No, it isn't an entirely different comparison. It's very true. Let's say that I like Coke. Whenever given the option, I drink Coke instead of Pepsi. Then I turn around and say that because I selected Coke, it's the real soda drink and Pepsi isn't a real soda. This is exactly what trying to use the date scene to prove a pairing is like. It's making an arbitrary claim based solely on biased evidence. You can't hope to prove something with that kind of evidence -- and mind you, this means Cloti's as well as Clerith's, no sides are exempt here.

Yes...yes it was. You are not the cat's creator, are you? The man who said the default thing, is among the creators and or is the main creator. Your comparison was off, by a lot. Your comparison is still off.

And again. No one said it was default. That's just how you interpreted it. I interpreted it differently.

Which again leads me back to the same thing as before -- such evidence is so incredibly swayed by the individual's interpretation that it may as well be no proof at all.

I know how the LTD can be ended. It can be ended right now, in fact.

Yes, someone more important to the decisions and makings of the game than you or I, said it. The creators have said it!

You may want to interpret something that cannot be or something you want to interpret, but that doesn't make it so.

Dismantled, SE and even Nomura and that other guy whose name escapes me, has said it. Interpretation cannot exist when it cannot, by the creator's words, be backed.

How about both sides just agree that both girls have the hots for Cloud and go draw funny pictures of them making him wear a dress? How about us fans, like the characters we so dearly love, just get along and not fuss about it any more? The day THAT happens is the day the LTD will finally come to a close -- it will no longer be needed.

Unfortunately, I have tried myself to make a pact between the sides. Four-five times. I don't want to mention which side was the first to break it each and every time, so I will just leave it with a "it doesn't work", sadly.

I can see reasons as to why the LTD continues from the CxA perspective. Getting flamed, made fun of, insulted, stalked and whatnot, will continue it for them. And I haven't seen much of a LTD go around anywhere else except the CxA forums the LSF's Cleriths' and Clotis', so that is the only place I can talk about.

Hmm, let me try to explain it again to you Dragon Mage. When you first start to play the game, Aerith is way ahead of the others because the creators picked her to be the default date instead of the others.

Just because there is a default date doesn't mean their can't be other options. "Default date" in FF7 (by the creator's words) just means its the story written "default" date that you get by just advancing on through the story normally.

And yes, of course there are ways to further increase Aerith's points. And? The point of the discussion is that Aerith is default and ahead of the others, therefore helping the argument that she's default/normal.

Again, the creator's words, not mine...

EDIT:
Another check through finished.

I have to go for now. Bye!

 

[Dragon Mage]

O_____O whoa.

Oh my gosh...I'm so sorry for the long post, but it had to be. Also, if there are any mistakes and caused confusion, I'm sorry. Please tell me where and I will clear it up

Also, If I missed anyway quotes please tell me, really. My Writer freaked out and doubled up on my writing. I double checked it 15 times and I think I got all the quotes. But if I didn't, just repost the quote and I will answer

And if I doubled up on a quote and answer, again sorry. Writer freaked out on me >.>

xD No problem, it happens to me too. It sucks when that happens.

FYI, sorry for the belayed reply here. I was really busy with school when you posted the megabeast and simply couldn't spare the time to reply. To let you know how busy I was, I was working on papers OVER MY BIRTHDAY. Yeah. So I wasn't snubbing you or being rude, I really just didn't have the opportunity to post till now.

*cracks knuckles* okay, here we go.

And? Where have I said there weren't options to decrease and increase? Have you not been reading my posts?

The point is that Aerith's date, by the creator's word, is default/normal. She has 50 points and Tifa 30 (I do believe?) and in order to increase Tifa's points, you have to consciously make romantic scenes between them which decreases the default/normal date, which is Aerith's.

Ah, well, it was implied. Like you were saying that the only way to get Tifa as a date was by being a jackass to Aerith when it so clearly isn't true.

AGAIN. Aerith is not the normal/default choice. He said, "If you play it normally." Playing a game normally isn't synonymous with Aerith being a normal/default date. Where did you even get the word "default" anyway? Nowhere. It simply isn't true.

AND ONCE MORE. You DO NOT have to make conscious decisions to get Tifa. I've listed myself and my brother as an example. I'll also list my friend (who loaned me his game in the first place) as an example: he got Yuffie the first time simply because he's a very spiteful person and takes wicked glee in being an asshole in game. If there's an evil side, he'll play it. Did he consciously decide to get Yuffie? No. He just played the way he normally does. I got Tifa the second time playing the way I would normally have (remember, the first time I play, I always chose this first option. This resulted in me being nice to Aerith sometimes and downing her score at other times.)

I just got her simply by being NORMAL. I didn't even know that your choices influenced the date scene! I thought it was a scripted event. I was amazed when Tifa showed up for the date. It isn't a conscious decision. It's a VERY LIKELY outcome that you get Tifa instead of Aerith. You just need to make a few decisions (there's a very short period of time to get that date, you know) here and there, very early in the game, and it will affect the outcome. Very small changes. Some of them even optional. :\

When you make a choice, its your choice and you are doing it on "purpose". When I decide to take a left instead of a right, that's my choice and I took left. I therefore deliberately took left, right?

I don't see how the creator's words aren't enough...

So you deny even the maker's words? Seems kinda of non-sensible to me. Yes, you can argue with the Creator's word, but it won't get you anywhere because their word is over ours.

That therein backs up the creator's word that Aerith is default. But since you really want me to post it:

You consciously made the decision to pick Tifa's more "romantic" scenes. It has been stated by the Creator's words. Why argue it? It makes no sense....

*sigh*


Okay, so this is just a few quotes. I didn't have the time to put them all down. May as well tackle all of your post in this one reply.

Needless to say, you're playing this up as if Nomura said that Aerith's date was the right one. All others were flukes, mistakes. Not meant to happen.

I can honestly say that is getting rather dumb. He never said it was normal. He never said it was default. That's just you saying it. He said "IF YOU PLAY IT NORMALLY...." That's the PLAYING he's talking about. Not the date, not the character but the player's typical first-time-through actions.

May I remind you that -- in the game context -- the actions you pick and the subsequent date you get will be normal, in respect to each other? For example, if you make choices in such a way and get Barret, then it would only be normal that you get Barret for all the things you did/said earlier in the game.

If you make choices that net you Tifa, then Tifa will be the normal result. It will be the obvious answer. This is the same with Aerith.

You also have to consciously decide to be romantic to Aerith as well to get her as a date, and don't try to say that isn't true. Being 'nice' to her is going to be romantic toward her (at least as far as her score is concerned). Also, I have to really doubt your qualification about what 'romantic' is. "Gimme something hard" will up Tifa's score -- but I wouldn't call that freaking romantic, feel me?

In any case, no. Nomura did not say -- whatsoever -- that Aerith's date is supposed to be the "real" one. Besides, does it MATTER? Because when you look at it, it isn't CLOUD that's initiating the date: it's the actual 'date' that initiates it in the first place. They come in the night and push Cloud out the door.

The LTD is about who CLOUD is supposedly gushy about. We already know the two girls like him. How does Cloud's say in the matter ever come into the date? Answer: IT DOESN'T. HE doesn't initiate it. The other person does. So really, it speaks more about THEIR affection toward him than his affection toward them.

I didn't say you had to be a "jagoff" I was just trying to make a point. You have to be considerably different (and some points kinda rude to her) to increase Tifa's points.

Sarcasm is rather rude, whether you want to believe it or not. But you took a meaning that wasn't there in my posts. I was making a point that you have to be "different" to Aerith, and that is very much true.

Well, I believe you said you had to act like a total jerk to her. If not you, then it may have been Cali. If that's the case, my apologies.

When I first played? I gave the flower to Marlene because she was a little girl (I actually hated Aerith until my fourth play-through mind you), didn't take Tifa's underwear because that was friggin' weird (but did a second run through) to do and said "yes, she's my girlfriend" to Aerith. Yet what was the date I got by default? Aerith's because that's how the creator's wanted you to have it. Even they have said it.

*sigh* No, you got Aerith because you were probably not making enough choices to raise Tifa's score. There's a whole lot of things in there that you didn't add as well. You could have very well have been raising her score without even realizing it. It wasn't default -- it's just how it turned out.

There is your mistake. You don't have to act romantic to Aerith to get her. You do for Tifa.

Yeah, sure, right.

Tifa: Want a drink?
Cloud: Give me something hard.
Result: TIFA'S SCORE GOES UP!

REALLY FUCKING ROMANTIC. *claps* You know why I picked up Tifa off the sewer floor after Don Corneo? Because she had the expensive equipment on! REAL ROMANCE THERE, NO MISTAKE.

Once again (with feeling) 'romance' is really stretching it here. I didn't like the way Aerith was constantly hitting on Cloud. It was awkward, I thought. So whenever she said something suggestive to Cloud I'd pick the evasive answer because my attitude was "Geez, lay off a little, woman." Like you, I thought the underwear was creepy. Both are personal preferences. But yeah, saying "I dunno" is SURE being unromantic. Yup. Whatever.

You picked the options suitable to your likings for Tifa, that is the case. I don't think I'll get you to actually say it, but that is the case. Those choices were created on purpose so one, if they tried, didn't have to get the story default date with Aerith.

Now please, there is no need to get upset. I'm just trying to explain it to you as you are trying to explain what you see it as to me.

You>play game>picks between options set before you>makes decision>gets result.

Well, duh. And YOU picked the options suitable to your likings toward AERITH.

IT GOES BOTH WAYS, SEE? You like Aerith, you pick options to up her score. I like Tifa, I pick options to up her score. My friend hates both, he gets options that gets the Yuffie date.

FINALLY, you've SAID IT! YOUR choices affect the game. YOUR preference decides the date. The date is biased. Biased however the player is biased. So how does this promote Cloud loving anyone? IT DOESN'T. The affection scores aren't for Cloud. They're for the other people. It has nothing to do with who Cloud loves whatsoever.

FINALLY we are getting somewhere. THIS is why the date is so worthless to the LTD. It is utterly superfluous to the entire thing.

(BTW, I wasn't getting upset at all, I was just being sarcastic. )

It takes a LOT to get Aerith to not be the default anymore. Even if you pick to take Tifa's underwear and say "Yes" to the boyfriend question, Aerith's points are still higher than Tifa's and will still be the default date.

That's because there's a LOT MORE to the decisions that affect the scores than JUST THOSE TWO EXAMPLES. It's entirely possible to lower and raise the scores at different turns, depending on what you say. It's like your saying those two options are the ONLY ONES THAT MATTER out of the whole list of decisions that affect the scores. Please. We call this anecdotal evidence. It doesn't work. It's a fallacy.

An amazing amount of the scores are affected by how you act toward people OTHER THAN the girls. Like the guy in Fort Condor? yeah, +3 bonus there if you agree to help him -- both times. That's a total +6 bonus, if the girls are in your party at the time. Or selecting who's in your party after leaving midgar, or choosing who will go with Aerith when you rescue her from shinra labs -- THOSE all affect scores, but have very little to do with the girls themselves.

Turns out, I was upping Aerith's score a lot because I took her with me a lot because she was a healer. I didn't even know I was doing that either. But there you have it. I picked her -- not for the character lovies -- but for simple battle strategy. If someone else didn't worry so much about having a healer, it wouldn't have raised her score at all.

So you look at that and STILL say it's default? I laugh.

What exactly do the Clerith's hang onto that has been cut? You have tried to twist my own argument against me and its failing.

Oh wait, I think I misunderstood for a second just now xD

Do you mean when they just discuss "cut" scenes just to discuss it? Or do you mean they use the cut scenes as I'm saying the Clotis do/did? That is different from actually "using" the scene to try and prove something, as the Clotis do. But please, link me to this supposed thread that exists on the CxA forums (since I know that's what you are talking about) so I may see myself.

They use cut scenes to prove romances. Not just Clerith's, not just Cloti's -- EVERYONE that's on a ship will do this. I grew out of it years ago. But eventually, every shipper will do it. Like I said, ignore it and move on. I wasn't referring to a thread at all, just overall shipper tactics. And I was talking about *this* thread, right here, not something on a CxA forum.

That is what you said. If you had meant something else, then please elaborate on it. Because as it is now, that's what you said.

I said no because you weren't getting it. I'm not dismissing any scenes as being arbitrarily unimportant because it doesn't support MY chosen ship. I'm saying, these things are relative.

A typical Clerith sees this:

Aerith: Cloud, hand me that materia.
Cloud: Sure.

And will see romance. BIG SIGNIFICANCE. All the Clotis will be like "wtf are you talking about?"

A typical Cloti sees this:

Cloud: Please pass the butter.
Tifa: Of course, Cloud.

And will see romance. Al the Cleriths will be like "wtf are you talking about?"

THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME. But the shippers are just rooting for a different team. Just because one thing is taken by a ship very seriously, doesn't mean it'll mean the same for everyone else. Simple.

If the Cleriths do as you say as the Clotis like to do, it would be different. You have missed the point.

When I said "we could discuss Tifa not being in the original game" it was directed at the Cloti mindset thinking a cut scene where they had sex matters, then I said the tidbit I had brought forth should also matter if this is the case to the Clotis.

Okay............. you utterly missed my entire point, and I'm not going to argue it over and over and over and fucking over again. I'm too tired and too old for this. Let's just skip the semantics. I wasn't even targeting the Clerith's, I was providing a foil.... just, nevermind. Never freaking mind. I'm not going to explain it, since it won't do any good. This conversation has slipped into semantics and if there's one thing more pointless in the entire world, it's semantics.

You have jumped to a conclusion on my meanings and saw something that just wasn't there. I never said the Cleriths' don't do it, please stop trying to put words in my mouth. >.<

Fair enough, my apologies. I thought you were accusing Clotis in general of pulling underhanded tricks and never Clerith's when ALL shippers, in fact, do them.

I very much like both pairings and both characters. I have loved Tifa since the start and hated Aerith from the start. Though now I like her...You're right. No one can convince me which I don't like since I like them both.

But, this doesn't mean there can't be a canon out of the two.

:dave: See? What you prefer is what you prefer, and no one will be able to make you think otherwise. Unless they have brain washing technology. Which in that case, I'd love to get employ their services.

Sure there could be a canon, and I'll tell you why there never will be.

Money. Simple as that. How many games have them made for FF7 alone? Right, money. The movies? Money. The artwork? Money. Rumors of remaking it? MONEY. It's all to keep up the tension. As long as they NEVER provide full closure for the characters, they will be able to keep bringing in the fans for more. It has nothing to do with the story or the characters -- it's all about the profit. That's why there will NEVER be a canon pair. There will always be just enough for either side to fire up the fanbase and nothing more. I've resigned to that reality for years now. Think about it. It makes sense, doesn't it?

I don't even know who those two are.

But I will take your word that its pretty bad! ^.^

It's from Samurai Warriors. A hack 'n slash game. It's so ridiculous you wouldn't believe it. Trust me.

But it is. Its not just something I or Cleriths' think, its actually stated. It cannot be argued or disproved, for its the creator's words, not ours.

Guess what! I got Creator's Words too! He said that Tifa was Cloud's sweetheart. CLEARLY she means a lot to him in a way deeper than friendship. Shit, they even live together, are caring for two kids together.... the only thing missing is the wedding for crying out loud. From the Mouth of The Creator himself. So let it be written! So let it be DONE!

This is why I never take interviews into account for the LTD. Now we're just going to go in circles. It's like the worst nightmare from hell, I tell you. We're better off sticking to the game and fanart and be done with it.

Hmm, let me try to explain it again to you Dragon Mage. When you first start to play the game, Aerith is way ahead of the others because the creators picked her to be the default date instead of the others.

Just because there is a default date doesn't mean their can't be other options. "Default date" in FF7 (by the creator's words) just means its the story written "default" date that you get by just advancing on through the story normally.

And yes, of course there are ways to further increase Aerith's points. And? The point of the discussion is that Aerith is default and ahead of the others, therefore helping the argument that she's default/normal.

It's like............ how do you describe a cathedral to someone who's been blind all their lives? I could cite so many reasons over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over why you're wrong to still call it default. In fact, it's all in this thread. Writing techniques. Character empathy to deepen loss. Context. Utilizing player emotions.

But I won't. I'm not going to say a goddamn thing. Because, in the end, that person will still be blind and not know what the hell you're talking about.

Unfortunately, I have tried myself to make a pact between the sides. Four-five times. I don't want to mention which side was the first to break it each and every time, so I will just leave it with a "it doesn't work", sadly.

Bullshit. Me and Mandi did it with great success and would've lasted, too, if the Darkblade drama hadn't killed it. It's perfectly possible. All that's needed is to create the club. And you're done. If you'll join, I'll be more than happy to make it right now. I even have the signatures and banners saved still. xD

 

[The Witch]

I didn't like the way Aerith was constantly hitting on Cloud. It was awkward, I thought. So whenever she said something suggestive to Cloud I'd pick the evasive answer because my attitude was "Geez, lay off a little, woman."

hahahaha, I lul'd seriously. I personally thought it was bratty for Tifa to tell Aerith she and Cloud were just friends and then act all snappy to Aerith when Aerith and Cloud flirted together. *shrugs* Good thing this is just our opinions, uh?

Guess what! I got Creator's Words too! He said that Tifa was Cloud's sweetheart. CLEARLY she means a lot to him in a way deeper than friendship.

Lol, where, I repeat, where has Cloud EVER been called Tifa's koibito? I would LOVE to see this. Or are you talking about this quote? Cloud is the woman's friend, lover (koibito)---he is a symbol for something important, an existence that she must protect.

Cause, I've never heard of one saying Cloud is Tifa's koibito? Mind providing it?














There isn't one, huh?










Thought so. The OFFICIAL quote [FONT=verdana,arial]never includes Cloud's name in the one speaking of Tifa, sorry to tell ya. There is, however, a quote saying Cloud is Aerith's KOIBITO.

[/FONT]

Shit, they even live together,

And? Tifa lived with Bigs, Wedge, Jesse AND Barret in VII. You tryin' to tell me that she was romantic with all of them too? Cloud and Tifa don't share rooms. They're separated.

He might reside at Tifa's Bar... but his home is Aerith's church. As stated from Cloud's own mouth, he calls Aerith's church "his place" (not to mention the church is also his promised land)

are caring for two kids together....

Ummm. You do know Marlene is Barret's daughter right? The family was Barret's idea. He and Marlene adopted Cloud into the family... Hmmm, now let's see... Tifa's cared for Marlene as her own since VII... Barret left Marlene in Tifa's care... Barret started the Family... Marlene and Barret ADOPT Cloud into the family of friends... making Cloud what? Oh, I know... definitely not the daddy of the family like you let yourself believe. It's not something romantic.

Hey, wait a second. If Barret started the family... and he placed Marlene in Tifa's care and Marlene and Barret adopted Cloud into the family that must mean... by golly, that means Barret and Tifa are the loving parents and Marlene, Denzel and Cloud are the children. Makes sense actually. Especially since Tifa has motherly feelings for Cloud and she... ya know... enjoys those motherly feelings towards Cloud.

the only thing missing is the wedding for crying out loud.

You mean the one that was predicted for Cloud and Aerith?

After solving the puzzle about Cat Sith's replaceable body, he tells one last fortune of Cloud and Aerith's affinity.
The result of it turns out "Aerith-san's star and Cloud-san's star! They promise a great future!" After that, it will become a sad prediction if we get to know what would happen afterward. But if we can catch the meaning of the "future" from another angle, we can see hope.....perhaps.
Caption:
Cat Sith's lines which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith's wedding now makes it more painful.

So, yeah, a wedding is missing between Cloud and Tifa... cuz it'll never happen. :/

From the Mouth of The Creator himself. So let it be written! So let it be DONE!

From the mouth of the creator...

Let it be written... "A STORY OF A LOVE... THAT COULD NEVER BE"

So let it be done!

 

[Starships]

I know I used to be a hard out Cloti supporter, but now I believe that Cloud loved both girls just as dearly, Tifa and Aerith. It is possible to love more than one person at once, and have just as equal feelings for them, without being a total perv. There's just as much proof out there that Cloud has strong feelings for Aerith, as well as Tifa.

I am starting to like both pairings now, than instead just liking on side and 'avoiding the enemy' why, hate or avoid somebody, who thinks differently ? Clerith really is, just as beautiful as Cloti is, and the idea of Cloud being with Aerith is just as beautiful as Cloud being with Tifa.

I believe that if Aerith survived, Cloud wouldn't of ended up with either of them, because he loves them just as dearly. I know that Cait Sith's prediction says that Cloud would of married Aerith, if she lived, but Cait has been proven to be wrong before. " You're favourite colour is blue " what ?

I do believe that love is a mature thing, and more complexed than just having feelings and emotions for just a single person. Not calling, or saying that Cloud or people in general should be a pimp, or perverted. But, love is very, very complexed and not that easy to understand, or explain. It's a serious emotion, and while you have feelings for somebody, it's possible to love somebody else just as much. And I don't think that we should be taking sides, and just end the LTD. Because it's just fighting, and really, Cloud probably just loves Tifa and Aerith just as much as the other...

This probably sounds like nonsense, so I'll stop now, before people get embarrassed...

 

[The Witch]

That's a well enough opinion to hold. But there are many(as myself) that just don't believe Cloud loves both women romantically just as much as the other. :/ It's a good spin on things, for once. But, that sadly isn't how every other fan thinks.

I myself, believe Cloud loves Aerith and will always love and cherish her. I do, however, think he loves Tifa... but it's a platonic love.

I guess, technically, in the optional world, the player can choose to make Cloud show affection towards both. But realistically, Cloud can't "love" both. It'd be wrong for Tifa and Aerith to "be with" a man that can't give them their whole heart.

Sure in a "let's-not-fight-or-argue-world" Cloud would pick both. But we're not in a world like that. :/

I know that Cait Sith's prediction says that Cloud would of married Aerith, if she lived, but Cait has been proven to be wrong before. " You're favourite colour is blue " what ?

Who says that's wrong? Cloud's eyes are blue. His outfit is blue? Has it ever been stated to NOT be right? No it hasn't. Nomura's the one that said Cait Sith's predictions have deep meaning behind it. If he guessed that Cloud would: “What you’re looking for would be yours, but you’ll lose something very dear.” then we shouldn't dismiss any other predictions of his.

Page120, the marked one
The fortune telling with deep meaning.
Cait Sith’s divination about the direction toward Sephiroth turns out three consequences. Disregard the previous two, the noticeable one is the third result which becomes the chance for him to follow the party—“What you’re looking for would be yours, but you’ll lose something very dear.”

As the storyline moves on to the event of Forgotten City, the “something very dear” can be read as losing Aerith, and it also hint the event of Cloud’s reaching his self breakdown when the story goes to the Northern Crater.

So, I'mma stick with that prediction cuz it does mean something. "IF Aerith had lived she and Cloud would be married" case closed, if you ask me. :/

 

[Dragon Mage]

hahahaha, I lul'd seriously. I personally thought it was bratty for Tifa to tell Aerith she and Cloud were just friends and then act all snappy to Aerith when Aerith and Cloud flirted together. *shrugs* Good thing this is just our opinions, uh?

Snappy? I don't recall her ever being snappy? Or do you mean the little 'huff' motion she made? You Mileage May Vary on that one. I doubt her going "hrmph" is being snappy, but okay. Like I said: YMMV. Each to his own.

Lol, where, I repeat, where has Cloud EVER been called Tifa's koibito? I would LOVE to see this. Or are you talking about this quote? Cloud is the woman's friend, lover (koibito)---he is a symbol for something important, an existence that she must protect.

*sigh* Note to self: Sarcasm doesn't translate easily into text. You're making my point for me. It's a ridiculous line to use to support CxT; by comparing it to the evidence I was addressing in my previous post, I was pointing out that BOTH were ridiculous sources of validity. You're actually making my case for me, right here. So thank you, actually, for driving my point home.

Such evidence is questionable at best and stupid to debate over. It isn't even debating, it's just bitching about semantics. Did I mention that semantics was the most pointless thing in the world? Pretty sure I did....

Thought so. The OFFICIAL quote [FONT=verdana,arial]never includes Cloud's name in the one speaking of Tifa, sorry to tell ya. There is, however, a quote saying Cloud is Aerith's KOIBITO. [/FONT]

I'm REALLY weary of this thread turning nasty. Let's keep it civil, if you please? Exasperation is fine, but getting mean is going a *bit* far. I'm so glad to know that there's multiple levels of "official" for whatever ship sees fit.

I don't suppose you could provide that quote now, could you?

Thought so.

Ummm. You do know Marlene is Barret's daughter right?

The family was Barret's idea. He and Marlene adopted Cloud into the family... Hmmm, now let's see... Tifa's cared for Marlene as her own since VII... Barret left Marlene in Tifa's care... Barret started the Family... Marlene and Barret ADOPT Cloud into the family of friends... making Cloud what? Oh, I know... definitely not the daddy of the family like you let yourself believe. It's not something romantic.

Hey, wait a second. If Barret started the family... and he placed Marlene in Tifa's care and Marlene and Barret adopted Cloud into the family that must mean... by golly, that means Barret and Tifa are the loving parents and Marlene, Denzel and Cloud are the children. Makes sense actually. Especially since Tifa has motherly feelings for Cloud and she... ya know... enjoys those motherly feelings towards Cloud.

Aaaand once again: I was pointing out how ridiculous it was to use the very information you provide here to validate the CxT pairing. It's stupid, and I agree with you on quite a bit of it. It's downright stupid to deny any relationship between Cloud and Tifa (obviously there is one, of some kind and degree, which is up to personal opinion) but it's also stretching to say that it's incontrovertible proof for the relationship as well.

I thought it was obvious I was being sarcastic when I brought this up. Apparently not.

You mean the one that was predicted for Cloud and Aerith?

After solving the puzzle about Cat Sith's replaceable body, he tells one last fortune of Cloud and Aerith's affinity.
The result of it turns out "Aerith-san's star and Cloud-san's star! They promise a great future!" After that, it will become a sad prediction if we get to know what would happen afterward. But if we can catch the meaning of the "future" from another angle, we can see hope.....perhaps.
Caption:
Cat Sith's lines which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith's wedding now makes it more painful.

So, yeah, a wedding is missing between Cloud and Tifa... cuz it'll never happen. :/

Oh dear Jesus. I don't know if you're serious or being sarcastic.

I really doubt a robotic cat saying that Cloud and Aerith are "compatible" (that's what he really said, don't try and say any different I'M LOOKING AT IT ON MY TV SCREEN RIGHT NOW) translates into "marriage". That's just stupid. He never says they promise a great future together either. You just want to see an indication of marriage for the chars because, obviously, you like the pairing. And so you see what you choose to in such questionable evidence. This is what I've been saying all along. And my throat is getting hoarse from saying it so damn much.

And in case you didn't get it, I was being sarcastic about Cloud and Tifa getting married. Sarcasm = don't take it seriously.

Let it be written... "A STORY OF A LOVE... THAT COULD NEVER BE"

Yeah, well, in case you didn't know, I got a 5GB limit on my internet usage per month. So video is really out of the question. But needless to say, I doubt a COMMERCIAL is the go-to source for information.





I've been saying it from the beginning: The LTD is stupid. Why? Because it boils down to this: bitching about semantics from material that is so vague and influenced by personal bias and choices, that nothing could ever be proven "true." It's subjective, for crying out loud. It can NEVER be proven. Why the hell would you want it to be proven? Just to satisfy some sick, sadistic need to crush the personal preference of those that oppose your own?



Oh dear god, it's so ridiculous. Why not just shrug and say, "agree to disagree"? Everyone's happy. That's my entire point: Just accept that it'll NEVER be proven and go about your way. Saves everyone more time and aspirin, I guarantee it.

 

[Terra Branford]

Was busy studying Linguistics. Sorry for delay.

Ah, well, it was implied. Like you were saying that the only way to get Tifa as a date was by being a jackass to Aerith when it so clearly isn't true.

AGAIN. Aerith is not the normal/default choice. He said, "If you play it normally." Playing a game normally isn't synonymous with Aerith being a normal/default date. Where did you even get the word "default" anyway? Nowhere. It simply isn't true.

Well, you can claim she isn't because you wish to, but this doesn't negate the fact that she is.

Default, normal...I think the quote say it itself. Game creator said she was the normal date through a normal playthrough.

What he says is far more important than what you or I may hope or say.

AND ONCE MORE. You DO NOT have to make conscious decisions to get Tifa. I've listed myself and my brother as an example. I'll also list my friend (who loaned me his game in the first place) as an example: he got Yuffie the first time simply because he's a very spiteful person and takes wicked glee in being an asshole in game. If there's an evil side, he'll play it. Did he consciously decide to get Yuffie? No. He just played the way he normally does. I got Tifa the second time playing the way I would normally have (remember, the first time I play, I always chose this first option. This resulted in me being nice to Aerith sometimes and downing her score at other times.)

So I am to assume you and all your friends/brother were unconscious during your play of FF7? Because picking the answers that leads toward a "tifa date" is consciously made, whether or not admitted. I find it extremely improbable that someone did not make the conscious decision of leaning away from Aerith or toward Tifa.

Very unlikely.

I just got her simply by being NORMAL. I didn't even know that your choices influenced the date scene! I thought it was a scripted event. I was amazed when Tifa showed up for the date. It isn't a conscious decision. It's a VERY LIKELY outcome that you get Tifa instead of Aerith. You just need to make a few decisions (there's a very short period of time to get that date, you know) here and there, very early in the game, and it will affect the outcome. Very small changes. Some of them even optional. :\

*sigh*

No, no, its not very likely. The fact that Aerith is 10-20 (I believe?) points ahead of Tifa is enough proof to say otherwise, that and the creator's words.

You can get Tifa, yes. Very likely? No. Not unless you consciously make the decisions to get her.

Okay, so this is just a few quotes. I didn't have the time to put them all down. May as well tackle all of your post in this one reply.

Needless to say, you're playing this up as if Nomura said that Aerith's date was the right one. All others were flukes, mistakes. Not meant to happen.

I can honestly say that is getting rather dumb. He never said it was normal. He never said it was default. That's just you saying it. He said "IF YOU PLAY IT NORMALLY...." That's the PLAYING he's talking about. Not the date, not the character but the player's typical first-time-through actions.

First, I'm not playing anything up. I didn't force the creator's hands in saying Aerith's date was the norm of them and caused through a normal play through where the player doesn't consciously make the decisions of "hey, I want Tifa/etc". Through most of what people think Aerith's "events" are romantic, they are not. There are two maybe three (probably less) that could be seen as romantic, but the fact is most of what you say to get Aerith isn't even related toward romance, yet it is for Tifa.

So, the normal playthrough of being nice to a child etc etc leads to the normal date of Aerith. Twas said by the creators.

If you think it is dumb, you can leave. No one is forcing you to stay here and argue the creator's words....

Here is the quote again for you.

1. In Aerith's case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith. ~FFVII Dismantled

He/they are talking about the date. He/they are saying that if you play the game normally, the normal date (part where he says "the partner that generally comes...) will be Aerith.

May I remind you that -- in the game context -- the actions you pick and the subsequent date you get will be normal, in respect to each other? For example, if you make choices in such a way and get Barret, then it would only be normal that you get Barret for all the things you did/said earlier in the game.

No, sorry. That's now how it is, sorry. If it was meant to be that way or it was that way, he wouldn't have singaled out "Aerith" and "normal" playthrough.

If you make choices that net you Tifa, then Tifa will be the normal result. It will be the obvious answer. This is the same with Aerith.

You also have to consciously decide to be romantic to Aerith as well to get her as a date, and don't try to say that isn't true. Being 'nice' to her is going to be romantic toward her (at least as far as her score is concerned). Also, I have to really doubt your qualification about what 'romantic' is. "Gimme something hard" will up Tifa's score -- but I wouldn't call that freaking romantic, feel me?

In any case, no. Nomura did not say -- whatsoever -- that Aerith's date is supposed to be the "real" one. Besides, does it MATTER? Because when you look at it, it isn't CLOUD that's initiating the date: it's the actual 'date' that initiates it in the first place. They come in the night and push Cloud out the door.

Again, no. That's not how it works. You are seeing something that simply doesn't exist, at all -- according to the creator's words. If that's how it was supposed to be, the creators would have said it, but they didn't.

No, you do not have to consciously make romantic decisions about Aerith, except later in the game before she dies, which I think only occurs once.

Yes, what I say could be said for Aerith if -- IF -- it was the same situations and wasn't stated and proven by play through, that you do NOT have to be romantic to Aerith to get her.

theEndofthatquote:
Read the quote again

The LTD is about who CLOUD is supposedly gushy about. We already know the two girls like him. How does Cloud's say in the matter ever come into the date? Answer: IT DOESN'T. HE doesn't initiate it. The other person does. So really, it speaks more about THEIR affection toward him than his affection toward them.

Well, I believe you said you had to act like a total jerk to her. If not you, then it may have been Cali. If that's the case, my apologies.

Yes, and that's what the discussion is about. So...?

I'd disagree; he does show it, but it comes down to "well, that's not romantixz!" or "well, okay, that's not cannon/doesn't mean that".

No, I believe I said it, but I didn't mean it literally. And I believe I stated so

*sigh* No, you got Aerith because you were probably not making enough choices to raise Tifa's score. There's a whole lot of things in there that you didn't add as well. You could have very well have been raising her score without even realizing it. It wasn't default -- it's just how it turned out.

Yeah, sure, right.

Tifa: Want a drink?
Cloud: Give me something hard.
Result: TIFA'S SCORE GOES UP!

REALLY FUCKING ROMANTIC. *claps* You know why I picked up Tifa off the sewer floor after Don Corneo? Because she had the expensive equipment on! REAL ROMANCE THERE, NO MISTAKE.

What's with the attitude? There isn't a reason to write in all caps. I'm not an idiot and I'm not blind...

I think you miss what is behind that score that is romantic, and therein I cannot hope to get you to understand why it is the way it is and why the creator's words mean as it says.

Its not the drink that was the romantic part, if any. You need to look behind the scene, but okay, not romantic. You are proving my point for me by stating that Tifa isn't Cloud's love....?

Once again (with feeling) 'romance' is really stretching it here. I didn't like the way Aerith was constantly hitting on Cloud. It was awkward, I thought. So whenever she said something suggestive to Cloud I'd pick the evasive answer because my attitude was "Geez, lay off a little, woman." Like you, I thought the underwear was creepy. Both are personal preferences. But yeah, saying "I dunno" is SURE being unromantic. Yup. Whatever.

Oh? You did? Thank you for saying so. Now there won't be anymore denials, right? You evaded Aerith. Thank you.

Well, duh. And YOU picked the options suitable to your likings toward AERITH.

IT GOES BOTH WAYS, SEE? You like Aerith, you pick options to up her score. I like Tifa, I pick options to up her score. My friend hates both, he gets options that gets the Yuffie date.

Again, what's with the attitude?

Please don't make assumptions of my character. You did not like it when you assumed I assumed something of you and you did not like it when Cali did it. So why must you make assumptions of me?

I love Tifa a lot more than I will ever love Aerith. But I suppose that won't fly or won't be believed because of someone can't possible like Tifa/Aerith and not hate Aerith/Tifa.

I went for Yuffie each and every time, or tried to rather, and ended up getting Aerith. There is nothing romantic that you can pick that leads to Aerith's date.

Game, creators, quotes, prove -- all of it says exactly that.

FINALLY, you've SAID IT! YOUR choices affect the game. YOUR preference decides the date. The date is biased. Biased however the player is biased. So how does this promote Cloud loving anyone? IT DOESN'T. The affection scores aren't for Cloud. They're for the other people. It has nothing to do with who Cloud loves whatsoever.

FINALLY we are getting somewhere. THIS is why the date is so worthless to the LTD. It is utterly superfluous to the entire thing.

(BTW, I wasn't getting upset at all, I was just being sarcastic. )

Um...I never denied that people could make their own choices on the date. The argument, currently, is that Aerith is the normal date. I haven't denied my own argument or contradicted it anyway. Its as straight as it was before, no bends.

Again, don't like it the simple solution is to leave. No one is forcing you to stay here and debate something you find some pathetically time consuming and extremely biased.

That's because there's a LOT MORE to the decisions that affect the scores than JUST THOSE TWO EXAMPLES. It's entirely possible to lower and raise the scores at different turns, depending on what you say. It's like your saying those two options are the ONLY ONES THAT MATTER out of the whole list of decisions that affect the scores. Please. We call this anecdotal evidence. It doesn't work. It's a fallacy.

An amazing amount of the scores are affected by how you act toward people OTHER THAN the girls. Like the guy in Fort Condor? yeah, +3 bonus there if you agree to help him -- both times. That's a total +6 bonus, if the girls are in your party at the time. Or selecting who's in your party after leaving midgar, or choosing who will go with Aerith when you rescue her from shinra labs -- THOSE all affect scores, but have very little to do with the girls themselves.

Turns out, I was upping Aerith's score a lot because I took her with me a lot because she was a healer. I didn't even know I was doing that either. But there you have it. I picked her -- not for the character lovies -- but for simple battle strategy. If someone else didn't worry so much about having a healer, it wouldn't have raised her score at all.

And? Other people up/down the score? So what, what does this have to do with anything? I am talking about decreasing/increasing the scores in ANYWAY and used the above examples as simply that - examples to express the changes between the scores.

So you look at that and STILL say it's default? I laugh.

I'm not appreciating this attitude you are giving me, Dragon Mage. I've said nay a thing to upset you or to be deserving of being talked to as if I'm incompetent. So please, stop.

They use cut scenes to prove romances. Not just Clerith's, not just Cloti's -- EVERYONE that's on a ship will do this. I grew out of it years ago. But eventually, every shipper will do it. Like I said, ignore it and move on. I wasn't referring to a thread at all, just overall shipper tactics. And I was talking about *this* thread, right here, not something on a CxA forum.

No no...I'm involved in a lot of couples (crack, ship, canon etc) and I have never seen someone use a cut scene to prove something, its ridiculous.

I know exactly where you were talking about. I asked where on the CxA forums, because I am fairly certain they don't try and "use it" to prove something, but simply discuss it. As I said...

I said no because you weren't getting it. I'm not dismissing any scenes as being arbitrarily unimportant because it doesn't support MY chosen ship. I'm saying, these things are relative.

A typical Clerith sees this:

Aerith: Cloud, hand me that materia.
Cloud: Sure.

And will see romance. BIG SIGNIFICANCE. All the Clotis will be like "wtf are you talking about?"

A typical Cloti sees this:

Cloud: Please pass the butter.
Tifa: Of course, Cloud.

And will see romance. Al the Cleriths will be like "wtf are you talking about?"

THEY ARE THE EXACT SAME. But the shippers are just rooting for a different team. Just because one thing is taken by a ship very seriously, doesn't mean it'll mean the same for everyone else. Simple.

What is up with the examples? I'm fairly certain the Clerith's don't find something so insignificant as romantic. And from seeing the CxA forums a lot, they are the EXTREME opposite of that and refuse to see something as romantic until something solid, moreso, comes out.

Okay............. you utterly missed my entire point, and I'm not going to argue it over and over and over and fucking over again. I'm too tired and too old for this. Let's just skip the semantics. I wasn't even targeting the Clerith's, I was providing a foil.... just, nevermind. Never freaking mind. I'm not going to explain it, since it won't do any good. This conversation has slipped into semantics and if there's one thing more pointless in the entire world, it's semantics.

Huh, I suppose I will just have to ignore this from you because clearly it won't stop. Ahem, anyhow.

Semantics are not being played in this debate. But if you cannot try and make your point, leave the attitude behind and stop speaking to me as if I'm incompetent then yes, it is wasting time.

Fair enough, my apologies. I thought you were accusing Clotis in general of pulling underhanded tricks and never Clerith's when ALL shippers, in fact, do them.

:dave: See? What you prefer is what you prefer, and no one will be able to make you think otherwise. Unless they have brain washing technology. Which in that case, I'd love to get employ their services.

Sure there could be a canon, and I'll tell you why there never will be.

I don't prefer 'anything' of the FF7 fandom.

Anyone can tell you why they won't openly admit the canon couple. Its for money purposes. FF7 fans will continue to buy whatever they sell about FF7 and as long as this debate exists, they will never admit out loud.

This doesn't, however, mean a canon couple doesn't exist.

Money. Simple as that. How many games have them made for FF7 alone? Right, money. The movies? Money. The artwork? Money. Rumors of remaking it? MONEY. It's all to keep up the tension. As long as they NEVER provide full closure for the characters, they will be able to keep bringing in the fans for more. It has nothing to do with the story or the characters -- it's all about the profit. That's why there will NEVER be a canon pair. There will always be just enough for either side to fire up the fanbase and nothing more. I've resigned to that reality for years now. Think about it. It makes sense, doesn't it?

It's from Samurai Warriors. A hack 'n slash game. It's so ridiculous you wouldn't believe it. Trust me.

Read above

Guess what! I got Creator's Words too! He said that Tifa was Cloud's sweetheart. CLEARLY she means a lot to him in a way deeper than friendship. Shit, they even live together, are caring for two kids together.... the only thing missing is the wedding for crying out loud. From the Mouth of The Creator himself. So let it be written! So let it be DONE!

Oh, is that the infamous quote that's been mistranslated over and over again and has many different translations that differ? :wtf:

Do you have a raw of this? I'd like to read it myself...but okay, sure. You have words from the creators.

They live with Barret's family. If living someone could mean they love each other, dang. Those dormmates better watch out in college. And? They are caring for children? So what?

I think I've seen this discussion before. Its the one where people throw Barret out of the family in favor of a couple, which is just...weird. :/

Cloud lives in Aerith's Church by the way...

This is why I never take interviews into account for the LTD. Now we're just going to go in circles. It's like the worst nightmare from hell, I tell you. We're better off sticking to the game and fanart and be done with it.

Hmm, fanart is nice....

It's like............ how do you describe a cathedral to someone who's been blind all their lives? I could cite so many reasons over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over why you're wrong to still call it default. In fact, it's all in this thread. Writing techniques. Character empathy to deepen loss. Context. Utilizing player emotions.

But I won't. I'm not going to say a goddamn thing. Because, in the end, that person will still be blind and not know what the hell you're talking about.

I haven't seen these reasons as to why I'm wrong, so if you are driving in circles its your own fault. I've seen you telling me the creator's word isn't canon and that it doesn't mean what he means. That's what I've seen...

Bullshit. Me and Mandi did it with great success and would've lasted, too, if the Darkblade drama hadn't killed it. It's perfectly possible. All that's needed is to create the club. And you're done. If you'll join, I'll be more than happy to make it right now. I even have the signatures and banners saved still. xD

Bullshit? They banned me for no reason (Well, I think there is a reason). How is that bullshit? Being constantly insulted and whatnot is bullshit?
The last time I went back, it was a horrible mistake. The last time I was promised 'don't worry, this and that won't happen' did happen. I'd rather not and keep my distance of all FF7 related forums (couples and everything), they cause endless amounts of trouble and hell for me.

========

I am sorry for any grammar errors, I am very tired (got up early this morning) and have been studying linguistics for a while. Please forgive any errors.

Terra~
​

 

[Baron Van Wolfen]

Heh.

The feeling I received is that It was more ambiguous in the original, but the compilation, to me, clearly sets up Cloud/Tifa.

I mean honestly, It's confirmed that Aerith loves Cloud and It's confirmed that Tifa does as well, but there's just so much more evidence towards Tifa post FFVII.

Dosen't help that in AC, Cloud shows no true feelings of love for Aerith. Only regret that he let her die. The reunion files, don't state he loves Aerith, neither do the OTWAS novellas....

Hell, she seems so much more like Cloud's guardian angel than his love. Why else does he say "mother" in her presence?

Then again Cloud and Tifa did confirm the same feelings in the highwind scene, and It does state Tifa is the only one Cloud has ever opened himself to....

To put It bluntly, there's confirmed, factual, decisive, clear-cut canon proof that Cloud loves Tifa after the Lifestream sequence, when he regains his true persona.

None for Aerith.

If I may speak openly and without scorn, I can't see how the Clearith side can continue to argue in face of such obviousness.

Sorry I just get a much more Cloti vibe from the compilation.

I truly believe without a doubt that is the canon pairing.

Also this article has wonderful information that pretty much settled It for me:

http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adve...triangle-debate-over/comment-page-5/#comments

 

[Dragon Mage]

So I am to assume you and all your friends/brother were unconscious during your play of FF7? Because picking the answers that leads toward a "tifa date" is consciously made, whether or not admitted. I find it extremely improbable that someone did not make the conscious decision of leaning away from Aerith or toward Tifa.

Okay. Let me be clear. You are not consciously deciding for which person you're going to get when you first play.

Why? you may ask.

Well, I'd say, it's simple. Because on initial playthrough, you don't even know there's going to be a date.

So yeah. It's perfectly possible to choose whatever reply you want and not have a clue as to what the effects will be (in this case, which date you'll get) later on in the game. Unless you're either god or using a walkthrough, you won't know on the initial playthrough.

I'm confused as to how this isn't obvious.

You can get Tifa, yes. Very likely? No. Not unless you consciously make the decisions to get her.

Tifa is a HELL of a lot more likely to get than Barret or Yuffie. So yeah. That makes her a very likely candidate in a contest of two (since you really DO have to consciously make actions to get the other two, leaving them out of the equation on a raw playthrough).

As I've said (so many times, I'm beginning to feel like a broken record) I got Tifa the second time I played purely by mistake. I did not set out with the goal of getting her. I got her without even know I could get her.

He/they are talking about the date. He/they are saying that if you play the game normally, the normal date (part where he says "the partner that generally comes...) will be Aerith.

Note that there's an awful lot of ambiguity in that line. "the partner that generally comes..." Not ALWAYS, not WITHOUT VARIATION, but GENERALLY. We call this "not being 100%" which means playing the game normally means that you can still get someone other than Aeris. The possibility is there for something other than Aeris.

What did I come on here saying? Oh, that's right. That not all scenes will be interpreted by everyone in the same way; it is very possible for two people to look at the same bit of dialogue and see two very different meanings.

No, sorry. That's now how it is, sorry. If it was meant to be that way or it was that way, he wouldn't have singaled out "Aerith" and "normal" playthrough.

And now I start bashing my head to a bloody pulp on a brick wall.

What's with the attitude? There isn't a reason to write in all caps. I'm not an idiot and I'm not blind...

I think you miss what is behind that score that is romantic, and therein I cannot hope to get you to understand why it is the way it is and why the creator's words mean as it says.

Caps come when I'm being extremely sarcastic. My version of sarcasm tags, as it were.

Try me. I know why it ups the romantic score, but that's not my purpose here. The entire reason I'm NOT debating romantic angles *for* CxT is because I'm not debating CxT at all. I'm saying there's equal ambiguity and possibility for all sides. Shit, for all we know, Cloud is gay and his true love died holding off half the Shinra army.

Oh? You did? Thank you for saying so. Now there won't be anymore denials, right? You evaded Aerith. Thank you.

When I "evaded Aerith" as you put it, I didn't know I was doing so at the time. This was my second playthrough, totally vanilla with no guide or research or anything, and I had no idea I even could "evade Aerith". I thought it was part of the script. I had no idea your choices affected the date. I was totally clueless.

So no. I did not "evade Aerith" so consciously as you seem to think. I just chose differently the second time around just to be different, and I got a totally different outcome without even knowing that's what I was doing.

This fairly banishes your belief that in order to get Tifa, the choices MUST be consciously made every single time. Maybe the decisions require more thought and more purpose, sure -- I'll totally agree with you there. But it isn't like the player is starting with the sole intent of getting Tifa for the date. Feel me?

Again, what's with the attitude?

Please don't make assumptions of my character. You did not like it when you assumed I assumed something of you and you did not like it when Cali did it. So why must you make assumptions of me?

I love Tifa a lot more than I will ever love Aerith. But I suppose that won't fly or won't be believed because of someone can't possible like Tifa/Aerith and not hate Aerith/Tifa.

Like I said, caps = exasperation and sarcasm.

I'm not making any assumptions about you. Clearly, you like the pairing. Clearly you don't hate Aerith. Clearly, you like the game. I'm simply employing straightforward logic here -- it only stands to reason that your choices the first time you played (absolutely vanilla, without knowing there would be a date later on) that you would make choices that would land you Aerith. I'm not accusing you of anything, merely taking the information you've told me and what I've seen and drawing a very reasonable conclusion from it.

I'm sorry if you thought I was assuming something rather unpleasant about yourself; that truly was not my intent and I sincerely apologize. My broken ankle is kinda killing me and is perhaps making me more curt than I would usually be. :\

First time I played, want to know why I gave the flower to Marlene? Because I thought it would make her like me (by proxy, Cloud) better. That she wouldn't clam up. But it didn't, so I was like "Wow, what a bitch." Second time around, I gave it to Tifa because I KNEW it wouldn't work with Marlene. And that set me on a different path later in the game that I didn't even know existed. Go figure.

And if you like Tifa I can totally believe that. Why wouldn't I? We're not different species just because we like different ships, for crying out loud. I've favored some truly unpopular characters before, so yeah -- it seems perfectly reasonable to me that you could like Tifa more than Aerith. No problem. *shrugs*

I'm not appreciating this attitude you are giving me, Dragon Mage. I've said nay a thing to upset you or to be deserving of being talked to as if I'm incompetent. So please, stop.

I'm sorry, truly, I am. No harm intended. Like my usertitle says (and I've said several times before) I use sarcasm naturally. Problem is, it doesn't always translate well to text. Broken ankle = pain = crabby Dragon.

No no...I'm involved in a lot of couples (crack, ship, canon etc) and I have never seen someone use a cut scene to prove something, its ridiculous.

Really? You are damn lucky, let me tell ya.

What is up with the examples? I'm fairly certain the Clerith's don't find something so insignificant as romantic. And from seeing the CxA forums a lot, they are the EXTREME opposite of that and refuse to see something as romantic until something solid, moreso, comes out.

xD They were just random examples I came up with to illustrate my point.

You seriously don't know? You don't know how far people will go to win this debate?

Ok, ok, let me give you one example I encountered years ago.....

Aeris, right, sounds a lot like the phonetic pronunciation of Eris, which is the Greek goddess of strife (not chaos, strife). Cloud's last name is Strife. Therefore Aeris and Cloud were meant to be together.

I kid you not. I could not make this shit up. You'd be amazed at how far any side will go to get that trump card in the debate. I am not making light fun when I say that fans will see romance in a request to pass the butter. It has already happened. Somewhere, right now, it IS happening.

Huh, I suppose I will just have to ignore this from you because clearly it won't stop. Ahem, anyhow.

Semantics are not being played in this debate. But if you cannot try and make your point, leave the attitude behind and stop speaking to me as if I'm incompetent then yes, it is wasting time.

No, seriously, it was pretty superfluous to the whole argument. Going over it again and again really isn't relevant to the debate whatsoever -- it's just a miscommunication and one that wasn't very relevant to the thread at all. I was seriously just thinking to save us all some time by just saying "whatever, wasn't important, let's move on" not being rude to you at all. We can if you like, but it really, really, really isn't important to the topic at hand at all. When I say it is just semantics, I mean it in the most literal sense. Very trival, nothing to worry about at all. Honest to god. *raises right hand*

Hmm, fanart is nice....

:dave: I love Aerith's expression in this.

Bullshit? They banned me for no reason (Well, I think there is a reason). How is that bullshit? Being constantly insulted and whatnot is bullshit?

Um.... for the record, I had no idea that was your history in this matter. I was saying "bullshit" more to the fact that you say the fans cannot ever unite, agree to disagree, and say "We like our pairings, let's make funny pictures". I know it's possible, it's happened, right on this forum, and I was one of two that helped start it. It's bullshit that it cannot ever happen. It could easily happen again, if there was enough weight behind it.

I'm sorry you suffered so at the hands of rabid fans, though: no one deserves that kind of treatment.

I haven't seen these reasons as to why I'm wrong, so if you are driving in circles its your own fault. I've seen you telling me the creator's word isn't canon and that it doesn't mean what he means. That's what I've seen...

I came on this thread with a purpose: to clear a brief misunderstanding, and to posit that not all scenes will be interpreted the same way by all fans. I've made my case. I've detailed why the whole way through. I've spent hours on these posts. And I get responses like.... this. "No, you're wrong."

You say you have tried, several times, to forge a truce between the two sides. This means negotiation. Agree to disagree. That means YOU must give some and I must give some. Not a whole lot, just a little, enough so that both sides acknowledge the existence of the other without being mutually exclusive. I've been giving out my ass. I haven't had the favor returned. Not even the slightest. I say, "this scene may be seen differently to someone else in a way that isn't CxA or CxT" and all I get is "Sorry, no, that just isn't possible; that's not the way it is." At every single turn.

Quite frankly, I don't feel eager to do it all over again. This one convo has spanned so many months, it's expected that what I said 2 pages ago will be forgotten by now. All I'm going to do is direct you to them and leave it at that.

I'm tired. I'm sick of spending hours and hours on just one post. I don't come to this forum to hear someone deny the possibility of anything else than what they want to believe. I'm more than willing to engage in discussion. I'm not so willing to bash my head on a brick wall for no reason. You are a grand forum member, Terra, and I mean that honestly -- you are very controlled, very concise, and a delight to converse with. But this conversation -- at least my part in it -- is absolutely ineffective. The point of being here is to get a little something from the convo: I'm just spinning my wheels.

So, I'm done. I really am. I'm not being spiteful, I'm not storming off in some tantrum. I mean you absolutely zero ill will. I'm 20 years old. I know when my efforts aren't accomplishing anything. I know when to walk out of a perpetual argument that has the potential to be ended, but simply won't be allowed to. My continued involvement here will do nothing. It hasn't actually done a thing since I started posting here, lol. So I'm out. I've said my piece. I can't force you to believe it, I can't make you do anything. All I can say now is goodbye. It just isn't fun anymore.

Good luck on your linguistics. If your posts are anything to judge by, I doubt you'll have much of a problem in that class.

-- Dragon Mage

 

[Baron Van Wolfen]

Just a note, 20th Ultimania clearly puts out the Date scene as completely ambiguous and optional to the player.

"

First, is a picture discussing the Gold Saucer date. The text describing it reads

Secret date

At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior." - http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adve...triangle-debate-over/comment-page-5/#comments

He dosen't specify Aerith as default, never has that happened as Mage explained It. In fact they have outright stated It's ambiguous to the player(as you can see above).

This is undeniable canon in It's purest form.

 

[Terra Branford]

I have to keep it short, gotta go.

@Baron Van Wolfen:
Is that the one translation that has received so many different translations different than the LSF's translation? Or is that the one that has been altered and its meaning lost...?

I'm sorry, I don't really trust that site much. Except when Q' does translations. I can trust her, she's cool.

What I see above is a blurry, small image in Japanese to which I have to give my trust, wrongly, to a community that can easily destroy the translation.

Do you have a raw of this scan (bigger)? I know many Japanese people, I'm sure I can get them to translate

At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior." - http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adven...ge-5/#comments

Ummm....I already know this. :/

He dosen't specify Aerith as default, never has that happened as Mage explained It. In fact they have outright stated It's ambiguous to the player(as you can see above).

Read the given quote again. Disproves what you are trying to tell us.

@Dragon Mage:

@no conscious decisions:
Since I will repeat myself and you will repeat your self, I'm just going to say: "You still made a conscious decision. Even though you were consciously leaning toward Tifa (or whomever), romantic or not romantic, the decision was made to go toward Tifa positively and negatively toward the others." and then the rest of my other post.

@Tifa is a HELL of a lot more likely to get than Barret or Yuffie. So yeah.:
You cannot have it both ways. Either you disagree or your agree. You cannot simply pick and choose which you think requires conscious decisions and you cannot simply pick what "proof" you want to use and then disregard the next moment.

And again with the attitude. For the last time, if you don't want to repeat yourself, don't. No one is forcing you to stay here.

@Note that there's an awful lot of ambiguity:
No there isn't. You are seeing something that isn't there. There is NO ambiguity in the quote. Its kinda ridiculous to say so....

And once more -- just because you think its up to interpretation, doesn't make it so and the creator's words backs it. So again, its not up to interpretation. If it was supposed to be, they would have said that instead of the Aerith date thingy-mah-bob.

@And now I start bashing my head to a bloody pulp on a brick wall.:
You know, this kind of behavior from anyone else would not be tolerated....

Just please, don't do it anymore. I'm asking you kindly, please no more.

@When I "evaded Aerith" as you put it,:
You just...you just said you picked the evasive answer because you: "my attitude was "Geez, lay off a little, woman."

You cannot say this, then say differently and then say "this" again just to change what you mean. It shows holes in your argument.

But if you wish to honestly continue and think that you didn't consciously choose to stop Aerith's "flirting" then go right ahead. Fine, fine, fine. You were asleep, you didn't pick which answer. There, sleeping-picking...

I'm not making any assumptions about you. Clearly, you like the pairing. Clearly you don't hate Aerith. Clearly, you like the game. I'm simply employing straightforward logic here -- it only stands to reason that your choices the first time you played (absolutely vanilla, without knowing there would be a date later on) that you would make choices that would land you Aerith. I'm not accusing you of anything, merely taking the information you've told me and what I've seen and drawing a very reasonable conclusion from it.

So...its okay for you to make assumptions? Actually you couldn't be more wrong, Dragon Mage. I don't like Aerith. I don't like Cloud. I don't like the couples. I don't even like FF7. But sure, continue your assumptions and then accuse others who do the same as it being insulting.

So you are wrong; I hate FF7 (really, I hate it), I hate the couples in the game. I dislike Aerith, Cloud, Sephiroth and EVERYONE else but Cid, Red XIII and Tifa. But sure, assumptions are nice. It just really saddens me to see you do exactly what YOU feel insulting. If you can make assumptions based on posts and what you believe are my views, can I not do the same to you?

@xD They were just random examples I came up with to illustrate my point.:

I know exactly how far each side will go. One side stocking others, taking their pictures, drawing on them, making hate sites, talking about them behind their back etc etc etc. I've seen it. I've been a 'victim' of it. I know exactly how far one will go to try and prove their couple right. Its the biggest reason why I stopped caring and started hating FF7.

Um.... for the record, I had no idea that was your history in this matter. I was saying "bullshit" more to the fact that you say the fans cannot ever unite, agree to disagree, and say "We like our pairings, let's make funny pictures". I know it's possible, it's happened, right on this forum, and I was one of two that helped start it. It's bullshit that it cannot ever happen. It could easily happen again, if there was enough weight behind it.

I'm sorry you suffered so at the hands of rabid fans, though: no one deserves that kind of treatment.

Its fine; they bug me naught. I just find it a little hilarious when done to me, weird when done to others.

And yes, I have tried pulling the sides together I don't know how many times and each and every time it failed horribly. Its far too late for that. Once could say "yea man, I'm sorry" but then you would see them calling you the B-word on their forum, mocking you, insulting you etc. It won't ever stop, sadly.

Oh, I had help doing some. From a few Clotis and from a few Cleriths. It just didn't turn out right, I just gave up. The truce can never be made. Its like Israeli and Palestine. They will forever hate each other.

@thelastofyourpost:
I suppose we can agree to disagree on the matters of the creators/whatnot...

=====

​

Endnotes: By my "hate" I don't mean it as in the "hate" people feel for example, towards tornadeos or evil, I mean "look at other FF7 fans...now subtract their fandom 30 times and that will be my "hate"; a normal, normal, normal, very normal affection for the game." Fun? Yes. Would I play it again? Definitely. But does it actually MEAN something important to me...? No...not really...
Bye, gotta go! `Night!

 

[Baron Van Wolfen]

Is that the one translation that has received so many different translations different than the LSF's translation? Or is that the one that has been altered and its meaning lost...?

I'm sorry, I don't really trust that site much. Except when Q' does translations. I can trust her, she's cool.

I have found no sources different from LSF's translation. From what I know, they are the only ones that have translated Ultimania.

You might be referring to that whole "koibito" business.

I'm sorry, I don't really trust that site much. Except when Q' does translations. I can trust her, she's cool.

What I see above is a blurry, small image in Japanese to which I have to give my trust, wrongly, to a community that can easily destroy the translation.

It's was done by three separate translators and Q was in the comments and didn't disregard any of the translations as false.

Looking at Pg. 5 onwards, Squall of Seeds gives a very good rundown of the exact translations.

Do you have a raw of this scan (bigger)? I know many Japanese people, I'm sure I can get them to translate

Unfortunately, no.

Ummm....I already know this. :/

Then you understand that Cloud's date is entierly dependant on the player himself and has no bias or inclination to any of the set date choices, as the quote explains.

Read the given quote again. Disproves what you are trying to tell us.

Please elaborate, It is not even beguinning to contradict my statement.

The date is entierly dependant on Cloud's behaviour, which Is in essence the player's.

There is no mentioned set date in the quote, and dosen't even disclose one inch of bias towards anyone in the date.

In-fact, this really dosen't affect the outcome at all.

Actualy I feel like we may be arguing trivialities, Cloud may have gone with anyone on that date, and If it was Aerith, really dosen't change the end result of what happened post-lifestream in FFVII. And that is that Cloud and Tifa ascertained their mutual feelings when Cloud had his true persona.

After that they live toguether and begin a family.

No shread of evidence exits for Cloud(the real Cloud, post-lifestream) having any sort of romantic feelings for Aerith. The only thing he displays is regret for her death(along with Zacks, both which he couldn't stop and were people very dear to him).

So yea that's pretty much It. TBH I feel like the people over at LSF have already cut out my work for me. We simply cannot say anymore about the subject, as everything's been said.

And considering that, I have no doubt Cloud/Tifa is the canon pairing.

Also I apologize for my common misspelling of certain words, english isn't my first language.

 

[The Witch]

Snappy? I don't recall her ever being snappy? Or do you mean the little 'huff' motion she made? You Mileage May Vary on that one. I doubt her going "hrmph" is being snappy, but okay. Like I said: YMMV. Each to his own.

Huff motion? She's stated to be jealous of Aerith. And in the Shinra building she says "Oh, I get it" that's snappy. But let's not get off topic, sug.

*sigh* Note to self: Sarcasm doesn't translate easily into text. You're making my point for me. It's a ridiculous line to use to support CxT; by comparing it to the evidence I was addressing in my previous post, I was pointing out that BOTH were ridiculous sources of validity. You're actually making my case for me, right here. So thank you, actually, for driving my point home.

Especially if you're doing it wrong. *shrugs* I have a problem believing you were being sarcastic(one, what was there to be sarcastic over, and two it just didn't come off that way)

But, please. Why are they ridiculous? Because YOU can't--won't accept the evidence provided? Please either edit your post or re-say it here and now, cuz, what exactly, Dragon Mage, was your point again?

Such evidence is questionable at best and stupid to debate over. It isn't even debating, it's just bitching about semantics. Did I mention that semantics was the most pointless thing in the world? Pretty sure I did....

If it's stupid, you know how to not lurk in here. We're not arguing semantics. We're providing proof... ya know... facts.

I'm REALLY weary of this thread turning nasty. Let's keep it civil, if you please? Exasperation is fine, but getting mean is going a *bit* far. I'm so glad to know that there's multiple levels of "official" for whatever ship sees fit.

Yeah, so why don't you chill out on the cussing and extreme sarcasm. Those tend to push a debate in a nasty direction. There's not different levels of official, either. I don't know why you think that. Official is if it's been released by SE. End of story.

I don't suppose you could provide that quote now, could you?

Thought so.

I... literally... just did provide that quote about Cloud being Aerith's koibito. I guess if you didn't see it I can repost it.

"Cloud is the woman's friend, lover (koibito)---he is a symbol for something important, an existence that she must protect." - CASE OF LIFESTREAM: WHITE


you thought wrong, I guess.

Aaaand once again: I was pointing out how ridiculous it was to use the very information you provide here to validate the CxT pairing.

Whoa.... ooooookay. Dude, seriously. If we can't use information to "validate" either pairing... what should we use? Scientist don't just ask a god-like being whether or not the Earth rotates around the sun, we use FACT and INFORMATION gathered to PROVE IT. That's what we're doing here. We're providing facts and information that reinforces the idea that our pairing is canon while the other is not.

I thought it was obvious I was being sarcastic when I brought this up. Apparently not.

Just. Don't. Be. Sarcastic.

It's not turning out right when you ost it, dude. :/

Oh dear Jesus. I don't know if you're serious or being sarcastic.

Serious.

I really doubt a robotic cat saying that Cloud and Aerith are "compatible" (that's what he really said, don't try and say any different I'M LOOKING AT IT ON MY TV SCREEN RIGHT NOW) translates into "marriage". That's just stupid.

Well... sorry to say this... but... it does. This quote: And please, for the love of GOD. Read the quote I'm providing below...

(NOMURA QUOTE )
"After solving the puzzle about Cat Sith's replaceable body, he tells one last fortune of Cloud and Aerith's affinity."

"The result of it turns out "Aerith-san's star and Cloud-san's star! They promise a great future!" After that, it will become a sad prediction if we get to know what would happen afterward. But if we can catch the meaning of the "future" from another angle, we can see hope.....perhaps.

Caption:Cat Sith's lines which seem to expect Cloud and Aerith's wedding now makes it more painful. "

The word Nomura used is literally AFFINITY. In case you don't know affinity means marriage. Not to mention, Cait Sith tells Cloud...

Cait Sith "Is that so? Then I'll tell you."
"Looks good. You are perfect for each other!"
"Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future!"
"Cloud, I'll be your matchmaker, preacher... I'll do whatever
you want me to! You just call me when it all happens!"

Preacher, eh? Preachers are for marriage ceremonies. but it also says they're perfect for each other and their stars show a great future. *herpderp*

Also, sorry you think it's stupid but it's fact. :/

He never says they promise a great future together either.

Recap, shall we?

He says:

"Looks good. You are perfect for each other!"
"Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future!"
"Cloud, I'll be your matchmaker, preacher... I'll do whatever
you want me to! You just call me when it all happens!" Sorry, sug, it does say their future together will be a good one. Why? Cuz the "great future" part follows right after Cait Sith says "You're perfect for each other. Aerith's star and Cloud's star. They show a great future."

In that scene he's talking about their romantic compatibility... hence him telling them their perfect for each other. The "great future" is in relation to Cloud and Aerith's romantic compatibility.

Wait-- I'm sorry, you just said you don't like playing semantics. You're doing it now, dude.

You just want to see an indication of marriage for the chars because, obviously, you like the pairing.

Nomura's the one that said it, not me. Blame him for saying there's an affinity between Cloud and Aerith.

And so you see what you choose to in such questionable evidence.

I don't take lightly to being called delusional. How about you stop insulting my intelligence and ability to see evidence and use it and actually provide proof for your C/T pairing or leave the thread.

This is what I've been saying all along. And my throat is getting hoarse from saying it so damn much.

Then leave the thread, dude. And we're typing not speaking.

And in case you didn't get it, I was being sarcastic about Cloud and Tifa getting married.

You're sarcasm isn't well typed out from you. How about you not use bad sarcasm in a debate thread, huh?

Yeah, well, in case you didn't know, I got a 5GB limit on my internet usage per month. So video is really out of the question. But needless to say, I doubt a COMMERCIAL is the go-to source for information.

Want a screencap? I could screencap the word LOVE between Cloud and Aerith as Cloud lays his love to rest? You want that? Cuz, I could do that easily.

I've been saying it from the beginning: The LTD is stupid.

You keep saying it's stupid but you're still here? Does that make you equally stupid? No of course not. So, if you think it's so dumb, you can always just leave, man. It takes no skin off of your back to leave a "stupid" thread alone. I do it to many threads. If I think a thread is stupid, I'm definitely not going to post in it. Especially if I think they really are stupid threads/debates.

Because it boils down to this: bitching about semantics from material that is so vague and influenced by personal bias and choices, that nothing could ever be proven "true."

No. False.

The only complaining about semantics is you. You CLAIM that we see a quote like the creators calling Cloud Aerith's koibito as OUR personal bias. You seem to feel that it's OUR personal bias when we see a quote speaking of Cloud and Aerith's marriage that we literally take it as what it's saying.

If Nomura says Cloud is Aerith's koibito, that's not mine nor any one elses "personal bias" it's Nomura's and SE's. They're the one's that said it, not us.

Things like Cloud being called Aerith's koibito isn't OUR bias, it's us using information from Nomura that called Cloud Aerith's koibito. That, my friend, is a FACT not personal bias.

You're logic is like saying if Nomura came out and made Cloud tell Aerith "I love you, Aerith" that it would be a fan's bias choice to take that as romantic when it wouldn't be.

It's subjective, for crying out loud.

You seem to be getting confused. "Subjective" evidential information would be as the following:

(when seeing the screen black out in the HW scene you make the SUBJECTIVE thought of) "Cloud and Tifa had sex under the Highwind."

(when seeing how many men love Tifa in the video game you make the SUBJECTIVE CLAIM that )"Cloud loves Tifa's boobs, too"

It is not subjective evidential information when we see:

a.) Cloud and Aerith's marriage be predicted and spoken of by the creator himself and a fan making the logical conclusion that it's speaking of Cloud and Aerith's marriage and romantic compatibility.

b.) a commercial say Cloud and Aerith are "a story of a love that could never be"

--we didn't say it, the official sources did AKA NOMURA, he's the head creator of the game in case you don't know that. Therefor it's not subjective or vague but rather answered pretty clearly especially if it's stated by the official game creators.

Just to satisfy some sick, sadistic need to crush the personal preference of those that oppose your own?

Is that you trying to say I'm a "sick, sadistic person that wants to crush other people's preferences?"

Cuz, sweetness, me posting in a debate thread is me discussing a big part of VII's storyline. It would be a pretty sick and sadistic thing of someone to write up a big article on a visited forum claiming Cloud and Tifa are canon when it's completely false. It's also pretty sick and sadistic for someone to continuously post in a thread they obviously think is stupid.

Oh dear god, it's so ridiculous. Why not just shrug and say, "agree to disagree"? Everyone's happy. That's my entire point: Just accept that it'll NEVER be proven and go about your way. Saves everyone more time and aspirin, I guarantee it.

Sug, if that was your entire point, do you honestly think you'd be in here posting your sarcasm, your cuss words, and your insults towards those of us who are discussing this?

I don't know about you, but the LTD doesn't have a RL affect on me. I definitely don't need aspirin after discussing it. It's a game, try not to take it so seriously. :/


On to someone else ______________

@Baron Van Wolfen

Dosen't help that in AC, Cloud shows no true feelings of love for Aerith. Only regret that he let her die.

Subjective. may I have proof, sug?

The reunion files, don't state he loves Aerith, neither do the OTWAS novellas....

Nothing ever states Cloud loves Tifa either. Point? And no, Nomura said when in comparison to Aerith's friends having platonic love for Aerith Cloud has his own undying feelings for Aerith. If it's opposite of platonic love and it's undying it could be only one of three things:

a.) Hatred. Pretty sure Cloud doesn't hate Aerith, right? Right.
b.) Guilt. Can't be guilt. Cloud's guilt is healed in AC, making it not undying.
or
c.) Love.

It's never been said that Cloud has ANY undying feelings towards Tifa. It's Aerith who's engraved in Cloud's heart for eternity. Not Tifa.

Hell, she seems so much more like Cloud's guardian angel than his love. Why else does he say "mother" in her presence?

Um, cuz he was UNCONSCIOUS. Zack and Kadaj did it too.

Then again Cloud and Tifa did confirm the same feelings in the highwind scene, and It does state Tifa is the only one Cloud has ever opened himself to....

lol, don't even get me started on that. It never says they confirm romantic love feelings. And the Highwind scene you are speaking of is OPTIONAL meaning it doesn't happen in the canon. There's no canon outcome for the HW scene, so if you try and claim the HA HW scene is canon you'd be wrong.

To put It bluntly, there's confirmed, factual, decisive, clear-cut canon proof that Cloud loves Tifa after the Lifestream sequence, when he regains his true persona.

Mind providing this "confirmed, factual, decisive, clear-cut canon proof?"

None for Aerith.

Okay. What about the quote of Cloud and Aerith's romantic compatibility being said to be perfect? Or what about their marriage and perfect future Nomura said they have together? Oh, I know, what about Cloud's undying feelings for Aerith. Wait, what about Cloud having Aerith engraved in his heart forever? And while we're at it, how about the commcerical that LITERALLY says in cold hard proof that between Cloud and Aerith it is "a story of a love"? Oh, yeah, can we also add how Nomura said the answer to Cloud and Aerith's relationship can be found at the ending of KH1?(btw, KH's ending shows Cloud reuniting with Aerith as other love stories are being reunited) Phew, almost forgot about the date in the park. And lest we forget about Nomura wanting to avoid the cliche love story of the guy dying for the woman he loved and switching it to the woman. And just to put it out there, Cloud's called Aerith's koibito--that's the Japanese word for LOVER.


I'm sorry... do we have any of that for Tifa? No.

If I may speak openly and without scorn, I can't see how the Clearith side can continue to argue in face of such obviousness.

*points to the official information I just provided to you*

Yeah, I can say the same about how Clotis outright ignore all the obvious facts for Cloud and Aerith.

Sorry I just get a much more Cloti vibe from the compilation.

That's great. You have the right to that opinion, too, sug.

I truly believe without a doubt that is the canon pairing.

I'm happy you can say that, too. But, I feel the same for CxA. :/

Also this article has wonderful information that pretty much settled It for me:

http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adven...ge-5/#comments

That article was written by a bunch of rabid fantards that do nothing but stalk CxA fans. I'd know. I was one of the CxA fans that was stalked. Nothing in that article is true. But since you think so highly of it, you do realize that Aerith and Cloud's date is on it too, right? And just so you know, Cloud and Aerith's date is the default/canon outcome which the creators say their date ends magically. The HA HW scene, however, doesn't have a canon outcome. It's optional therefor invalid.

Dragon Mage

Aeris, right, sounds a lot like the phonetic pronunciation of Eris, which is the Greek goddess of strife (not chaos, strife). Cloud's last name is Strife. Therefore Aeris and Cloud were meant to be together.

That is subjective. But:

What about the quote of Cloud and Aerith's romantic compatibility being said to be perfect? Or what about their marriage and perfect future Nomura said they have together? Oh, I know, what about Cloud's undying feelings for Aerith. Wait, what about Cloud having Aerith engraved in his heart forever? And while we're at it, how about the commcerical that LITERALLY says in cold hard proof that between Cloud and Aerith it is "a story of a love"? Oh, yeah, can we also add how Nomura said the answer to Cloud and Aerith's relationship can be found at the ending of KH1?(btw, KH's ending shows Cloud reuniting with Aerith as other love stories are being reunited) Phew, almost forgot about the date in the park. And lest we forget about Nomura wanting to avoid the cliche love story of the guy dying for the woman he loved and switching it to the woman. And just to put it out there, Cloud's called Aerith's koibito--that's the Japanese word for LOVER.

Is not subjective.

And now I start bashing my head to a bloody pulp on a brick wall.

Step away from the computer.

As I've said (so many times, I'm beginning to feel like a broken record) I got Tifa the second time I played purely by mistake. I did not set out with the goal of getting her. I got her without even know I could get her.

And I got Aerith the first, second, third, fourth, and fifth playthrough of the game. Note, I had no idea about the LTD, was nice to Tifa and still got Aerith.

He dosen't specify Aerith as default, never has that happened as Mage explained It. In fact they have outright stated It's ambiguous to the player(as you can see above).

This is undeniable canon in It's purest form.

Hun, Aerith's date is default and canon. Like I said above, the Highwind scene is also OPTIONAL. And if you read the whole page, the pic of C/T directs the reader to another page. That page it directs you to also mentions that the HW scene is optional and depends on the player. Making it just as valid as the date picture being shown. Only difference, Cloud and Aerith's date is canon/default while your HW scene is not.

Meaning, if that page declares either pairing canon, it's Cloud and Aerith. :/

Then you understand that Cloud's date is entierly dependant on the player himself and has no bias or inclination to any of the set date choices, as the quote explains.

So is the Highwind scene. I cannot emphasize this enough. Both scenes are OPTIONAL.

Actualy I feel like we may be arguing trivialities, Cloud may have gone with anyone on that date, and If it was Aerith, really dosen't change the end result of what happened post-lifestream in FFVII. And that is that Cloud and Tifa ascertained their mutual feelings when Cloud had his true persona.

That. Scene. Is. Optional.

Meaning it didn't happen.

After that they live toguether and begin a family.

Um, no. Barret started the family. Marlene, Barret's kid, adopts Cloud into said family--the same family Tifa refers to as A FAMILY of FRIENDS.

It's not romantic like you want it. :/

No shread of evidence exits for Cloud(the real Cloud, post-lifestream) having any sort of romantic feelings for Aerith. The only thing he displays is regret for her death(along with Zacks, both which he couldn't stop and were people very dear to him).

Again... this is FACTS I'm providing. Everything said within the parentheses is backed by official sources and creators...

(What about the quote of Cloud and Aerith's romantic compatibility being said to be perfect? Or what about their marriage and perfect future Nomura said they have together? Oh, I know, what about Cloud's undying feelings for Aerith. Wait, what about Cloud having Aerith engraved in his heart forever? And while we're at it, how about the commcerical that LITERALLY says in cold hard proof that between Cloud and Aerith it is "a story of a love"? Oh, yeah, can we also add how Nomura said the answer to Cloud and Aerith's relationship can be found at the ending of KH1?(btw, KH's ending shows Cloud reuniting with Aerith as other love stories are being reunited) Phew, almost forgot about the date in the park. And lest we forget about Nomura wanting to avoid the cliche love story of the guy dying for the woman he loved and switching it to the woman. And just to put it out there, Cloud's called Aerith's koibito--that's the Japanese word for LOVER.)


So, yes, there's more evidence for Cloud and Aerith then there ever will be for Cloud and Tifa. :/

So yea that's pretty much It. TBH I feel like the people over at LSF have already cut out my work for me. We simply cannot say anymore about the subject, as everything's been said.

Riiight. And that's why Nomura said he had no idea if Cloud and Tifa had ever been romantic with each other. If they admitted their love under the highwind, Nomura would know about it, don'tchya think?

Also I apologize for my common misspelling of certain words, english isn't my first language.

Not a problem, at all, man.

 

[Dragon Mage]

Though this goes against my stated vow, some bad air needs clearing. I dislike leaving grudges where they needn't be at all.

Terra, there's really nothing more I can say. Everything I wrote down was meant as was written, nothing more. It appears we're just constantly passing by the point of understanding, so I really see no need to keep pounding on it. Let's assume everything you say I will argue isn't a universal interpretation; let's assume everything I say you will respond with skepticism or disbelief, and the ensuing conversation becomes a lot of nitpicking. Lather. Rinse. Repeat. It'll save us both time in the long run, I promise. From what I see, neither of is getting very far anywhere, so.... truce?

So...its okay for you to make assumptions? Actually you couldn't be more wrong, Dragon Mage. I don't like Aerith. I don't like Cloud. I don't like the couples. I don't even like FF7. But sure, continue your assumptions and then accuse others who do the same as it being insulting.

So you are wrong; I hate FF7 (really, I hate it), I hate the couples in the game. I dislike Aerith, Cloud, Sephiroth and EVERYONE else but Cid, Red XIII and Tifa. But sure, assumptions are nice. It just really saddens me to see you do exactly what YOU feel insulting. If you can make assumptions based on posts and what you believe are my views, can I not do the same to you?

Well......

That's unexpected. Seriously, of all logical conclusions, who would expect a person that hates FF7 to be debating so fiercely on an FF7 LTD? Totally not on the high end of "things likely to happen" list. Wildly improbable. Nothing could have prepared me for such an unlikely truth. To that end, I sincerely apologize for making such logical assumptions that actually ended up being totally inaccurate: if you look back, maybe, and see it from my point of view, you may see how I was misled and mistook you to be a big fan. My bad entirely, sorry about that.

I mean.... really, who expects a hater of the game to be debating for a pairing of that game? Unheard of. A first for me, and I've been reading these things for years, on many different forums.

You cannot say this, then say differently and then say "this" again just to change what you mean. It shows holes in your argument.

But if you wish to honestly continue and think that you didn't consciously choose to stop Aerith's "flirting" then go right ahead. Fine, fine, fine. You were asleep, you didn't pick which answer. There, sleeping-picking...

No, really, read what I said carefully. At the time, I didn't know I was "avoiding" anything. I didn't know anything could be avoided. Therefore, how could I possible pick options -- knowingly -- to avoid something I didn't even know was optional? That is what I'm saying.

I know exactly how far each side will go. One side stocking others, taking their pictures, drawing on them, making hate sites, talking about them behind their back etc etc etc. I've seen it. I've been a 'victim' of it. I know exactly how far one will go to try and prove their couple right. Its the biggest reason why I stopped caring and started hating FF7.

And yes, I have tried pulling the sides together I don't know how many times and each and every time it failed horribly. Its far too late for that. Once could say "yea man, I'm sorry" but then you would see them calling you the B-word on their forum, mocking you, insulting you etc. It won't ever stop, sadly.

Ahhhh, fanhate. Now I see what you mean. There's a trope about that, you know. "Fanhaters." I ascribe to this myself with concerns to Twilight.

Also, we had that happen to Mandi once, long ago. 2 members were bullying her, defiling pictures, etc: I'll have you know I have absolutely no truck with such stuff, and if I find someone doing that, I will inflict great bodily and emotional harm to them. This is simply done by posting their e-mail address on the right environmental-activists websites. Very effective, if you want any more information, I'll be happy to help. Seriously.

The truce can never be made. Its like Israeli and Palestine. They will forever hate each other.

Actually I just found a club on DeviantArt called "Cleris - Cloti - United: Stop the hate!" Enjoy! Hope this made your day a little better.

Huff motion? She's stated to be jealous of Aerith. And in the Shinra building she says "Oh, I get it" that's snappy. But let's not get off topic, sug.

Oh, well, I didn't know what you were referring to. Did Tifa say she was jealous or...?

But, please. Why are they ridiculous? Because YOU can't--won't accept the evidence provided? Please either edit your post or re-say it here and now, cuz, what exactly, Dragon Mage, was your point again?

Because you asked....

Because this line that you are using? It is the SAME as the "koibito" line. Exactly. Creator says something.... and the fans go wild! What happens in the end? Nothing. Both sides are still locking horns, and the LTD thrives; becausely, ultimately, neither line gives definitive -- absolute, 100% proof, unquestionable, undeniable, written in blood proof -- closure to the whole deal. See, *I* think the koibito line seals the deal, but then I'm inclined to believe that ship anyway. You most likely think this new quote seals the deal for the ship you prefer.

So who's right? Both sides will say, "We are." But they can't both be right. So the LTD continues.

That's why both these lines are ridiculous sources of info. The ultimate quote to shut down the LTD forever would have to be Nomura saying -- with absolutely zero doubt as to his meaning -- that this or that ship is the right one. Such a statement would have to convince the opposite ship, no matter how much they don't want it to be true. The koibito line doesn't convince you; the date quote doesn't convince me. Therefore, utilizing either in attempt to 'prove' the validity of one ship over the other isn't going to work. It simply doesn't have enough decisive, unquestionable power to sway even the other ship as to the truth of the matter. Which is essentially what it will take to stop the LTD once and for all.

Does that help you understand my take on the situation? Feel free to ask if it doesn't.

If it's stupid, you know how to not lurk in here. We're not arguing semantics. We're providing proof... ya know... facts.

I could point out that 'facts' is debatable, but that would also be semantics.

I... literally... just did provide that quote about Cloud being Aerith's koibito. I guess if you didn't see it I can repost it.

I... wasn't talking about that line....

Whoa.... ooooookay. Dude, seriously. If we can't use information to "validate" either pairing... what should we use? Scientist don't just ask a god-like being whether or not the Earth rotates around the sun, we use FACT and INFORMATION gathered to PROVE IT. That's what we're doing here. We're providing facts and information that reinforces the idea that our pairing is canon while the other is not.

Correction: YOU are. I'm not. I never have. The most I've ever debated is how seemingly flawless proof may not have the same meaning to everyone. I never once debated for CxT except when being exceptionally dry.

I can tell you what you should use. Opinion. Personal taste. Honestly, if everyone just used their own opinion for the LTD, the whole debate would be over in a zap.

Just. Don't. Be. Sarcastic.

It's not turning out right when you post it, dude. :/

Now, this is absolutely nothing against you. But saying stuff like this is one of my major buttons. Please, please, please, don't push it. You have no way of knowing this is one of my buttons, so I know it was done in perfect innocence. I'm just telling you now, please don't say it. I've gotten some very bad history with comments like this and needless to say, it's pretty darn bad. So this is me begging you -- please don't say it again.

Please.

Serious.

The word Nomura used is literally AFFINITY. In case you don't know affinity means marriage. Not to mention, Cait Sith tells Cloud...

Cait Sith "Is that so? Then I'll tell you."
"Looks good. You are perfect for each other!"
"Aerith's star and Cloud's star! They show a great future!"
"Cloud, I'll be your matchmaker, preacher... I'll do whatever
you want me to! You just call me when it all happens!"

Preacher, eh? Preachers are for marriage ceremonies. but it also says they're perfect for each other and their stars show a great future. *herpderp*

Also, sorry you think it's stupid but it's fact. :/

*quirks eyebrow*

af·fin·i·ty

   /əˈfɪn

ɪ

ti/ Show Spelled [uh-fin-i-tee] Show IPA noun, plural -ties., adjective
–noun 1. a natural liking for or attraction to a person, thing, idea, etc.

2. a person, thing, idea, etc., for which such a natural liking or attraction is felt.

3. relationship by marriage or by ties other than those of blood ( distinguished from consanguinity).

1. a natural liking, taste, or inclination towards a person or thing 2. the person or thing so liked 3. a close similarity in appearance or quality; inherent likeness

Now, since we KNOW that Cloud and Aerith are not married, that means it can only mean the first two definitions.

Affinity is precisely what Cait Sith was telling: They're liking/compatibility with each other. He wasn't comparing their marriage. xD In no way does "affinity" = "marriage" within this context. Easy way to figure this out is by replacing the word in the quote. "...he tells one last fortune of Cloud and Aerith's marriage." No, it doesn't sound quite the same. Just look at the synonyms for "affinity." No, he was predicting if they have an affinity for each other, not with each other. (i.e. Cloud has a liking for Aerith; he does not have a marriage for Aerith."

Synonyms
1. partiality, fondness; sympathy, leaning, bent. 4. similarity, compatibility.

Sorry, but being a writer, I just HAD to address that. xD

Also, I got the sense that Cait Sith was merely being an asshat when he said that. From my point of view, what another character says about the pairing -- no matter how explicit it may be -- does not have nearly the same kind of authority as what is said/done by those involved in the actual pairing itself. But that's just me. Clearly, you see it as validation. I'm not so convinced.

But then, that has always been my point since I started posting on this thread. What you see will not be what I see. This illustrates my point perfectly. Afraid I'm digressing...

I don't take lightly to being called delusional. How about you stop insulting my intelligence and ability to see evidence and use it and actually provide proof for your C/T pairing or leave the thread.

xD I'm not calling you delusional. LMAO Delusional people go rowing a boat on the driveway while singing gospel. You obviously aren't doing that. (Of course, if you ARE doing that, I demand pics.)

How did you ever get the idea that I was debating CxT? <_< I made it as clear as possible that I wasn't back or hating any pairing. Just pointing out that not all evidence will have the same meaning to everyone. I even compared this to optical illusions.

Then leave the thread, dude. And we're typing not speaking.

1) Did. If you want to save money on aspirin, I suggest you do the same, before some incredibly volatile Cloti joins and finds this thread. It will happen. I've seen it.

2) Analogy.

Want a screencap? I could screencap the word LOVE between Cloud and Aerith as Cloud lays his love to rest? You want that? Cuz, I could do that easily.

See, that's what I mean! Commercials = fan bait. It would obviously appeal to a lot of the fanbase that's CxA. I saw a commercial for AC that said Cloud was doing all this ass-wupping for 'himself'. Call in the roflcoppters. I seriously couldn't stop laughing when I saw that.

No. False.

The only complaining about semantics is you. You CLAIM that we see a quote like the creators calling Cloud Aerith's koibito as OUR personal bias. You seem to feel that it's OUR personal bias when we see a quote speaking of Cloud and Aerith's marriage that we literally take it as what it's saying.

If Nomura says Cloud is Aerith's koibito, that's not mine nor any one elses "personal bias" it's Nomura's and SE's. They're the one's that said it, not us.

Things like Cloud being called Aerith's koibito isn't OUR bias, it's us using information from Nomura that called Cloud Aerith's koibito. That, my friend, is a FACT not personal bias.

You're logic is like saying if Nomura came out and made Cloud tell Aerith "I love you, Aerith" that it would be a fan's bias choice to take that as romantic when it wouldn't be.

I thought koibito = sweetheart?

xD Ah, it doesn't matter anyway.

Obviously, it wouldn't be fan's bias if Cloud did such a thing. But he hasn't. All we've gotten are sprinklings of suggestion, like bacon bits on a salad. Very tasty, but not enough to make a meal on.

I could scrounge up PLENTY of things that would provide just as much seemingly 'damning' proof for CxT as you have for CxA. But that's not my purpose here. I look forward to the day when Cloti's and Clerith's can be amiable neighbors -- they share clothes, go out for coffee, get the each other's mail when on vacation. To try and add my "evidence" to this would only throw more gas on the fire. Which is rather counter-productive to my goal here. Was my goal, at least.

Also, bias isn't a bad thing. It's just preference. Don't look at it like you've got to really prove something -- take big mental step back and look at the whole picture and ask yourself why, if according to everything you've provided on this thread, is the LTD still raging? Don't say, "because the other side is in denial" that's being unfair. Logically, try and puzzle out why someone else would be just as vehement as you about the exact opposite. Don't expect to figure this out in a few minutes, or even a day. Take your time. Take in ALL evidence, from both sides. Examine it well. Don't think up of arguments against, it -- try and understand why it's believed. If you honestly work at it, you'll see why I say a lot of the evidence for either side of the LTD is very much up to personal interpretation.

You may not agree with it, but at least you should understand where I'm coming from a little better. From what I see in this quote above, you really don't know exactly what I mean.

--we didn't say it, the official sources did AKA NOMURA, he's the head creator of the game in case you don't know that. Therefor it's not subjective or vague but rather answered pretty clearly especially if it's stated by the official game creators.

What I said above.

You'll be amazed at how subjective it is.

The best analogy for the LTD is politics. In all its' scope. Which is even more reason to not debate it anymore -- it never persuades, it only makes stubbornness.

Step away from the computer.

Don't worry, I covered the computer with a cloth. It didn't get any blood on it.

Is that you trying to say I'm a "sick, sadistic person that wants to crush other people's preferences?"

Cuz, sweetness, me posting in a debate thread is me discussing a big part of VII's storyline. It would be a pretty sick and sadistic thing of someone to write up a big article on a visited forum claiming Cloud and Tifa are canon when it's completely false. It's also pretty sick and sadistic for someone to continuously post in a thread they obviously think is stupid.

ROFLMFAO

xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

I was joking. xDDDDD If I truly thought you were a sadistic creep, I'd be reporting you the authorities! Good god, I don't think you could hurt a fly! Your username is based on colorful kittens!! LMAO! I didn't say Cloud and Tifa were canon. xDDDDDD Not ever! xDDDDDD

Correction: This thread isn't stupid, the entire fact that we're debating over the romantic inclination of nonexistent people, and spend hours and hours researching and formulating theories,and making posts: that is fairly stupid. And unhealthy, really. I think you'll agree: We all have WAY too much time on our hands!

Anyways, you got me totally wrong. My point was, that in order to really *prove* your pairing, it would require crushing any and all possibility of the other pairing from existence -- which would certainly crush the hearts of the a great deal of the fanbase. Which strikes me as a little cruel. As much as I like CxT, I don't relish the thought of grinding all the Cleriths under my heel like a leering tyrant. :\ I'd have become like the people I hate the most, were that to happen, and the thought makes me very uncomfortable. (No, I'm not making this up, I'm being very serious.)

So no. No resolving the LTD for me, please. I'm quite happy to have both pairings exist and be equally possible. Perhaps, in such a setup, Cloud might actually get lucky. The guy is going to need all the help he can get!

I don't know about you, but the LTD doesn't have a RL affect on me. I definitely don't need aspirin after discussing it. It's a game, try not to take it so seriously. :/

Oh xD no, it isn't that. Reading too much text on a screen for too long gives me a headache. Especially since my screen is really bright, even when I turn the brightness all the way down.


Personally, I'm just happy to say there's equal evidence and possibility all around, buy a round for everyone, and be happy with that. "I don't share your opinion, but I'll admit it may be possible," is what both sides should be saying. It's enough to satisfy even the most rabid of fans and really is the best solution at hand.

So, how about it? Let's not share each other's opinions, but agree that the possibility is entirely there, no matter how incredibly slim that possibility may be? Sound like a fair deal? Then send me a VM or something, and we'll put our amazing brains together and think something up.

Well, I hope that clears up that bad air I was talking about. Goodybe, farewell... and good luck!

--Dragon Mage

 

[Baron Van Wolfen]

I'm going to be honest here, I'm not really looking to dissect posts and start a real discussion, I'm simply not that interested in either pairing(hell I'm actually not interested in a pairing, what I was arguing was what the canon pairing was).

Okay. What about the quote of Cloud and Aerith's romantic compatibility being said to be perfect? Or what about their marriage and perfect future Nomura said they have together? Oh, I know, what about Cloud's undying feelings for Aerith. Wait, what about Cloud having Aerith engraved in his heart forever? And while we're at it, how about the commcerical that LITERALLY says in cold hard proof that between Cloud and Aerith it is "a story of a love"? Oh, yeah, can we also add how Nomura said the answer to Cloud and Aerith's relationship can be found at the ending of KH1?(btw, KH's ending shows Cloud reuniting with Aerith as other love stories are being reunited) Phew, almost forgot about the date in the park. And lest we forget about Nomura wanting to avoid the cliche love story of the guy dying for the woman he loved and switching it to the woman. And just to put it out there, Cloud's called Aerith's koibito--that's the Japanese word for LOVER.

Yea um, say hello to the lifestream sequence. I'm not going to regard that "Koibito" non-sense, Tifa has been called the same.

That's not even close to proof that the real Cloud loves Aerith. He might have had an attraction to her when he had his mixed persona(probably because of Zack's latent emotions), but after he regains himself in FFVII onwards, absolutely nothing that even implies romance is there.

That's why the first game is ambiguous, the compilation is Cloti.

That. Scene. Is. Optional.

Meaning it didn't happen.

This.


This is the why I didn't want to get in this debate and why It'll never be solved.

It dosen't matter if the scene is optional THE QUOTE ISN'T AND THAT's THE POINT!

That's outright denial over the Ultimania material. They state Cloud and Tifa confirmed mutual feelings(which we all know is love since that's what Tifa felt, and It's the feaking "For the One I Love" Page) on the page with the canon couples. There should be NO denying that this page proves Cloti is canon. They love each other since the highwind scene, and both know It.

Oh and even if you don't believe in the scene, there's no escaping th other quotes like this one for example:

"She ventured into Lifestream together with Cloud. Amidst the course of him trying to ascertain his memories, they became aware of the thoughts/feelings which each other was holding." - http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/profile/tifa.php

So really, after the lifestream sequence they're both aware of what each other feel, adn they confirm they're feelings as mutual in the highwind scene.

And It's canon. To deny that would be to deny the creator's reality.

Nomura's reality > Your's or mine

Hun, Aerith's date is default and canon. Like I said above, the Highwind scene is also OPTIONAL. And if you read the whole page, the pic of C/T directs the reader to another page. That page it directs you to also mentions that the HW scene is optional and depends on the player. Making it just as valid as the date picture being shown. Only difference, Cloud and Aerith's date is canon/default while your HW scene is not.

Meaning, if that page declares either pairing canon, it's Cloud and Aerith. :/

And It dosen't direct you anywhere as, the caption of Cloud and Tifa outright saying they have matching feelings is on the page of the canon couples.

No It dosen't, all you're doing is taking style and context over substance to suit your own needs.

Don't try and guess by the pictures, look at the captions. That's what's canon.

They don't mention Aerith. They mention Tifa.

I honestly couldn't care if It was Aerith, Barret, Tifa, Yuffie that took Cloud on a date. The date captions has no real significanse with It's lack of information and outright statement that the date is ambiguous and that it's not Aerith as you would so like to believe. The caption under the highwind scene outright confirms Cloti as official.

To summarize, the Highwind scene is optional or not, It dosen't matter. What's important is the text that confirms Cloti.

That caption that says they share their mutual feelings, is canon. Whatever the version would be of the scene, in ALL OF THEM Cloud and Tifa would confirm they're feelings, the caption is a canon comment of the creators on the compilation.

The caption in the same page titled "For The One I Love" where all the other canon couples in the series all have captions for themselves.

Yes, let me repeat that:

There is a canon text confirming that Cloud and Tifa feel love for one another and are both aware of this, they also then confirm the feeling as mutual in the highwind scene. All this is in a page titled "For The One I Love" with all the other canon couples of FF. Not even one singular mention of Aerith or any other significant scene regarding Aerith, or anything even remotely close to Aerith. There is only Tifa and Cloud in that page.

It dosen't get more straightforward than that. Aside from Nomura getting a chair and start whacking Clerith fans over they're heads screaming: "CLOTI IS CANON" this is the closest to canon it will ever get; It's confirmation they're regarded at same height as couples like Squall and Rinoa and that they love each other.

They couldn't have been more clear with they're intentions.

That's why this debate will never end, this is the core of the problem, It's the denial of the source material.

I'm sorry but I meant It when I said that i can't believe how Clearith's can argue in face of such evidence.

I don't fell like arguing this anymore, the true canon pairing can't get more confirmed than this. It's like you're trying to argue that Yuna and Tidus aren't canon, yet of all the canon couples captioned on that page only Cloud and Tifa are out there by sheer coincidence and are tottaly uncanon? Please. Take a moment and think about how absurd that sounds. And if this post dosen't show that to you, than I already know nothing I ever say will get to you, so I'll take my leave of this thread.

 

[Ruhku]

I havn't played this game yet but isn't it Zack Fairs from FFVII Crisis Core's fault as he said at the end to Cloud that he is Zacks living Legacy and to live for the both of them.
I think Cloud think that he is Zack still hence why him and Aerith are close all the darn time.
It would be more appropiet with Tifa as they lived their childhood together in there own homeland.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Just a note, 20th Ultimania clearly puts out the Date scene as completely ambiguous and optional to the player.

"

First, is a picture discussing the Gold Saucer date. The text describing it reads

Secret date

At the Gold Saucer, Cloud receives an invitation from one of his companions. Who comes around with the invitation is dependent on Cloud’s behavior." - http://thelifestream.net/ffvii-adve...triangle-debate-over/comment-page-5/#comments

He dosen't specify Aerith as default, never has that happened as Mage explained It. In fact they have outright stated It's ambiguous to the player(as you can see above).

This is undeniable canon in It's purest form.

Wrong, seems to be the only word I can answer to you on this; because Nomura disagrees.

This is the payment she suggests when Cloud says that it'll cost her to hire him to be her bodyguard. This line shows the composed and mischievous side of her. It may be because of this promise that it's easier to have Aerith be the other party in Cloud's date when they're in the Gold Saucer. ~pg. 30, FFVII Ultimania Omega

1. In Aerith's case, if you play the game normally, the partner that generally comes will be Aerith. ~FFVII Dismantled

If Aerith is Normal and the easiest date, that would make other date choices difficult and...abnormal...no? So yea there is a default preference to the date sequence whilst the Highwind scene lacks to have so be stated.

Irrefutable canon in its most solid form.

Yea um, say hello to the lifestream sequence. I'm not going to regard that "Koibito" non-sense, Tifa has been called the same.

That's not even close to proof that the real Cloud loves Aerith. He might have had an attraction to her when he had his mixed persona(probably because of Zack's latent emotions), but after he regains himself in FFVII onwards, absolutely nothing that even implies romance is there.

That's why the first game is ambiguous, the compilation is Cloti.

That is where I am going to have to stop you, I have debated this sole little tid-bit many times, because Tifa is not Clouds Koibito, she is point and case: "a sweetheart". a) No where is Cloud mentioned in the sentence, with Tifa or by the person speaking and b) The quote has been officially translated as SWEETHEART -- disregarding the many possible and vague meanings that "Koibito" has or could have. The quote calling Tifa a sweetheart -- and I say sweetheart here because again, that is the OFFICIAL translation -- is discussing her ROLE not her relationships. Accompanying this; Tifa is called "a sweetheart" not "the sweetheart of one", there is a stark mad difference between being Clouds Koibito/Sweetheart [when the man is not mentioned ONCE in the sentence] and being "A SWEETHEART" -- A - as in she being one person, single, one, an individual, only possibly being able to be a one person who is a sweetheart.

a[uh; when stressed ey]
–indefinite article 1. not any particular or certain one of a class or group: a man; a chemical; a house.

a man [NOT a man to someone in particular]; a chemical [NOT a chemical to something in particular]; a house [Not a particular persons house ].

---

So, no. Tifa has been called a sweetheart, to NO ONE in particular, Aerith has been called a particular mans Koibito/Sweetheart; Cloud who is absent from Tifa's sweetheart quote, to be precise.

---

Nothing affecting Clouds persona, would have or was affecting his feelings for someone else, mind explaining how the way someone acts or acted would effect their feelings toward another person? I mean, I could understand possibly affecting Aeriths feelings for Cloud but Clouds personality affecting the way he feels about Aerith? They are to completely unconnected things, its ludicrous ;/

Someones outward persona would generally affect peoples views and opinion of them; not said persons inward feelings of people or a single person.

---

Nothing that implies romance afterward, huh? How about Cloud yearning for her in AC? Suffering in loneliness until seeing her again? Living in her Church/calling it "his place"? Wanting her forgiveness more than anything? Thinking of her a lot after her death AND his persona correction in FFVII? If Cloud doesn't have romantic feeling for someone he doesn't even know by your admission; why will he never forget her/why is she engraved in his heart? Why did he ask her who he was? Why did Nomura say something very dear to Cloud can be seen as Aerith?

So I am sorry but I cannot recall where or when it was stated that Cloud had Zacks emotions and feelings? Persona, gestures, yes, feelings and emotions? No.

---

I'm sorry, did Cloud and Tifa have the Affinity prediction & commercial entitling them as a 'love that could never be'? The compilation is Clourith.

---

This is the why I didn't want to get in this debate and why It'll never be solved.

It dosen't matter if the scene is optional THE QUOTE ISN'T AND THAT's THE POINT!

That's outright denial over the Ultimania material. They state Cloud and Tifa confirmed mutual feelings(which we all know is love since that's what Tifa felt, and It's the feaking "For the One I Love" Page) on the page with the canon couples. There should be NO denying that this page proves Cloti is canon. They love each other since the highwind scene, and both know It.

Oh and even if you don't believe in the scene, there's no escaping th other quotes like this one for example:

"She ventured into Lifestream together with Cloud. Amidst the course of him trying to ascertain his memories, they became aware of the thoughts/feelings which each other was holding." - http://ultimania.ff7compilation.net/profile/tifa.php

So really, after the lifestream sequence they're both aware of what each other feel, adn they confirm they're feelings as mutual in the highwind scene.

And It's canon. To deny that would be to deny the creator's reality.

Nomura's reality > Your's or mine

Yes, it really does matter if the scene is optional, because the creators made it that way for just that reason, so you can have the option to choose whatever you like, why would the creators solve the LTD with an optional scene? If they wanted it to "be written" that Cloud loves Tifa? They wouldn't, if the creators had the right choice they wouldn't have given US one.

On top of this, why has Nomura said he has no clue if Cloud and Tifa have been in a relationship, if the answer was in Final Fantasy VII itself?

If they wanted to let us know what was canon, they'd make forced scenes/ and the like per se; Cloud thinking of Aerith a lot, Cloud and Aerith going on a date, his speech at her death, wanting to unfreeze her smile above all else and calling them a LOVE that could never be in the commercial ad.

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No, unless it is called love, then you are just assuming it without base, when it is called love then you know it. You do realize That Cloud and Aeriths date is on that scene, no? So Cloud and Tifa know they love each other, but Nomura has no clue? Strange.

Yes, again with the vague "feelings" which could be anything, Clouds past crush which is what they talk about there, etc. etc. Yes, they are aware of the vague "feelings", what "feelings" are those exactly? And I'd like something official on that, not assumption.

The creator has spoken his reality, and that is; He has no clue if Cloud and Tifa are in a relationship.

Cloud and Aeriths love announced in the official commercial > Nomura's cluelessness on Cloud and Tifa

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To deny the commercial, is literally to deny the creators and their great story and intentions of it and for it.

I honestly couldn't care if It was Aerith, Barret, Tifa, Yuffie that took Cloud on a date. The date captions has no real significanse with It's lack of information and outright statement that the date is ambiguous and that it's not Aerith as you would so like to believe. The caption under the highwind scene outright confirms Cloti as official.

To summarize, the Highwind scene is optional or not, It dosen't matter. What's important is the text that confirms Cloti.

That caption that says they share their mutual feelings, is canon. Whatever the version would be of the scene, in ALL OF THEM Cloud and Tifa would confirm they're feelings, the caption is a canon comment of the creators on the compilation.

So we don't see Aerith right their in that picture? What are you saying here? You do realize that Nomura has indeed said Aerith is the default date, no? And that the High-wind scene is as ambiguous and vague if not more so than the Date Scene? They are both optional, only difference is the High Wind scene has no default or "normal out-come" as Nomura would say.

The text confirms nothing, however I see you think you have authority to claim things as of no or little to no importance when you don't.

Again with the "feelings", its vague what feelings exactly are they? Are you talking about the same creator who has no clue about whether or not Cloud and Tifa are/have been in a relationship?

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I won't bother getting back to the last parts of your post because; its all your opinion and you can keep it, because you cannot debate someones personal prefernce, I can however ask you to leave it at the door of a debate.

It dosen't get more straightforward than that. Aside from Nomura getting a chair and start whacking Clerith fans over they're heads screaming: "CLOTI IS CANON" this is the closest to canon it will ever get; It's confirmation they're regarded at same height as couples like Squall and Rinoa and that they love each other.

I don't fell like arguing this anymore, the true canon pairing can't get more confirmed than this. It's like you're trying to argue that Yuna and Tidus aren't canon, yet of all the canon couples captioned on that page only Cloud and Tifa are out there by sheer coincidence and are tottaly uncanon? Please. Take a moment and think about how absurd that sounds. And if this post dosen't show that to you, than I already know nothing I ever say will get to you, so I'll take my leave of this thread.

Ist et you felt so threatened by us/people debating the matter that you had to come into A thread about a matter you are claiming to know and feel comfortable with enough to not debate and set us straight onto the path of your choosing, nobody called you into the thread you know. Once again here you say you refuse to debate and yet clinch your post with yet another jab of debate. Yet here you are saying this that and the other thing are so blatantly obvious; yet you turn you eye on the very blatant and bold commercial ad; calling Cloud and Aerith a love, and you speak of "canon" couples side by side meaning something yet Cloud and Aerith are also on that page; as well as the coke ads alongside Rinoa and Squall and many more things like that.

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My advice to you; don't let other people views on things bother you so much, and don't throw words like "absurd" and "denial" around so easily, because we are all human and the things you say online can hurt people you know.

 

[Terra Branford]

Wow guys, calm it down a bit >.>
There isn't a need for such emotes/smilies or attitude. :<

That's unexpected. Seriously, of all logical conclusions, who would expect a person that hates FF7 to be debating so fiercely on an FF7 LTD? Totally not on the high end of "things likely to happen" list. Wildly improbable. Nothing could have prepared me for such an unlikely truth. To that end, I sincerely apologize for making such logical assumptions that actually ended up being totally inaccurate: if you look back, maybe, and see it from my point of view, you may see how I was misled and mistook you to be a big fan. My bad entirely, sorry about that.

I mean.... really, who expects a hater of the game to be debating for a pairing of that game? Unheard of. A first for me, and I've been reading these things for years, on many different forums.

I know, I'm a whole lot of weird. Its part of me, sorry >.>

I debate it because I'm interested in the sides (I believe I stated so...?), the evidence and how each side sees official evidence/etc etc.

I debate things I hate all the time. Debating shouldn't be just for things you like. Debating things you dislike also doesn't mean you cannot come up with the reason as to why and what or what is canon and what is not

@Baron Van Wolfen:
I'm referring to both, to all actually. Happens quite a lot... So you don't have a larger, clearer image of that scan that I can have translated and have its syntax correctly kept as well as transliteration? I simply cannot put my trust on a site that has shown hostility (really bad hostility) against the "pinkers". The image is so small and blurry, I find it hard anyone can correctly see each Japanese character and translate it and keep its original meaning. Do you think whoever owns it at the Lifestream forums would mind sharing a larger scan of it with me?

Oh, Squall of Seeds...yea, I really need a clean scan of the page because the last time I read translations on it, it did not say anything of which you said...

Then you understand that Cloud's date is entierly dependant on the player himself and has no bias or inclination to any of the set date choices, as the quote explains.

You seem to have a incorrect understanding of what is being discussed here, Baron.

Options can exist within a object that has a default. We have all agreed the player can pick the date, that isn't the discussion at hand or relevant to it. The discussion is whether or not Aerith's date is the "default/normal" date from a default/normal play through of the game. Which is, stated by the creators.

I think I understand what you guys think this means. You think that because we and the creators stated Aerith is the default/normal date of a default/normal play through of the game, that it means there can't possibly be another date to get.

Think of it sorta like a forum. When you install a forum, it gives the software a default theme. You can delete the default or switch to another theme, but the default theme doesn't stop existing or doesn't stop meaning "default", does it?

Please elaborate, It is not even beguinning to contradict my statement.

The date is entierly dependant on Cloud's behaviour, which Is in essence the player's.

There is no mentioned set date in the quote, and dosen't even disclose one inch of bias towards anyone in the date.

In-fact, this really dosen't affect the outcome at all.

Actualy I feel like we may be arguing trivialities, Cloud may have gone with anyone on that date, and If it was Aerith, really dosen't change the end result of what happened post-lifestream in FFVII. And that is that Cloud and Tifa ascertained their mutual feelings when Cloud had his true persona.

After that they live toguether and begin a family.

Actually, it does. You claim that the creators didn't say the quote about the default/normal date and the creator wasn't even talking about a date.

Here is what you said again:

He dosen't specify Aerith as default, never has that happened as Mage explained It. In fact they have outright stated It's ambiguous to the player(as you can see above).

You think that scan you provided states that the dates are ambiguous when in fact it is just talking about the dates in general and that one can get each of the dates. No where does it say or disregard, the creator's statement of Aerith being the default date, which is exactly as the creators meant.

And I feel I must say it again: no one is denying that the date depends on Cloud's (the players) choices. The point of the current discussion is that the creators states Aerith's date, is the default date.

Assumptions and general opinions are good and all, but you shouldn't try to apply such things to a debate based on facts.

You say they talked about their mutual feelings. So? You assume it means something romantic when there is nothing really pointing to this fact? I clearly remember a different scene and even translations say they agreed and discussed their feelings. But no where have I ever seen anything ever say what they discussed was their "love" for each other.

"Mutual feelings" doesn't automatically mean love. I have discussed mutual feelings to a lot of people, should this be assumed of as romantic feelings? I talk about mutual feelings on matters and on people all the time...Which brings me to another point. They could have talked about their feelings about what to do next. What to with Marlene or after the battle. What is leading the assumption really, that what they did was confess each others' love for each other? Because again...I haven't seen anything to support that idea.

No shread of evidence exits for Cloud(the real Cloud, post-lifestream) having any sort of romantic feelings for Aerith. The only thing he displays is regret for her death(along with Zacks, both which he couldn't stop and were people very dear to him).

So yea that's pretty much It. TBH I feel like the people over at LSF have already cut out my work for me. We simply cannot say anymore about the subject, as everything's been said.

And considering that, I have no doubt Cloud/Tifa is the canon pairing.

Also I apologize for my common misspelling of certain words, english isn't my first language.

No shred you say? I wouldn't be so bold as to make such a statement, Baron. Regret for her death? Its far more than regret. You must see that. If you feel as if that's all he felt, than you are darkening Cloud's character to one so sinister, it could be comparable to Sephiroth.

There are many books, the movie, game quotes, translations from the Ultimanias and whatnot, that shows just how deeply Cloud cares for Aerith.

Again, it is far more than regret and to simply state so without anything to back such a bold statement (I don't much care for personal feelings on the matters...), is just silly.

The Lifestream forums? And do you just take and take from that forum? I'd really like to know because well...

Your English is perfectly, fine Baron.

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Sorry for shortness of post; I am extremely tired and I didn't want to direct anything that could led to a fight.

Please excuse mistakes, I will go over and fix them if I see anything.

Terra~

P.S
This thread/forum hates me. Every time I post, I get syntax errors and index.php errors!

 

[Mr_Fair]

that was awsome dragon mage im glad to know im not the only one who beleaves that the best way to stop an ongoing pointless arguement is to be an adult and simply stop being a part of it becuase as the old saying goes "it takes two to tango" i kinda feel like an idiot becuase this wasn't very thought out but im not the shapest tool in the shed lol i had to thank you for thinking the same way i do when it comes to arguements descusions are fun to a certain dagree but when they turn into arguements no more