Religious Beliefs

I have a question for TSG, Tethar too if he's an athiest. Why do u say Sephiroth is a God if you don't belive in God? Just a question so try to keep answers as short as possible. I don't really like reading long, lecture like posts.
 
DKnight said:
you some of the most scientific minds were really religious. Einstien was a devout Jew.
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Please get your facts straight. Einstein may have made hints to being deist, but does not associate to being Christian in no way. He might actually have been labelled as a Jew when he lived in Europe, which is the reason he left Germany or Austria during WWII. But if you wanted to take the perspective that he was a Jew that moved to Switzerland and worked as a clerk, you could say he abandoned those Jewish roots in favor of deism and science. So now what does that tell you?

And if you ever read the Gospels the Ten comandment were exchanged for only two. Love others as you love yourself and love God above anything else. has nothing to do with anything, all it is asking for is love.
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There was more than that. At least thou shalt not kill, thou shalt not commit adultery and thou shalt not steal were removed from the second set to be replaced with more commandments that promote religious intolerance. The worshipping of God, the Sabbath day, and if you disobey them, you're going to anger God and be punished, and it is religious intolerance because not everyone worships God and breaks those commandments, and it's like saying worshipping God makes you moral; all others who don't are immoral and are not allowed to have their own religions. There's more to it than simply loving God above everything else. Based on what I have seen of God, I find it very difficult to love God above everything else.

But saint and prophets did not inflict any injury upon them selves. they went out to preach the word to people who did not want to hear that anything was wrong with them so they beat and murdered the prophets and saints. And only in Death were there words heard by the masses and understood.
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Martyrs flogged themselves, and I have no idea why they'd want to do that. And saints and prophets didn't just preach their relgion; they had the intent to convert and force their religions down other people's throats, and threaten them with pretty much what the bible promised to threaten heathens. Anyone who hears this would feel intimidated and offended. Those saints and prophets went out of their way to intervene on someone else's mode of life and preach religious intolerance. That's why they were beaten up. I don't necessarily agree with them being beat up, but those saints did bring it upon themselves.

And you read the bible and only read what each word literally means. It is a book of stories. You can never understand any story if you only look at anything that way. That is why in any good English class they teach you to analyze what you have read for a much deaper message.
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If we go back to that example of motherhood, that word could in essence, imply compassion, but that doesn't exclude several other things, including looking after someone, bearing and raising children, and having an attitude that constitutes to being a mother. So how is compassion, which may as well be a part of the concept of motherhood, be any deeper than what the word "motherhood" implies? Furthermore, if you dig deeper into the connotation of motherhood, this applies exclusively to women and not men. Does this mean that men somehow don't have to have compassion, or is that compassion separate from the ones that women have? Compassion makes no distinction between genders, and if the bible has to make it this distinct, then I'd consider it sexual discrimination. The problem with metaphors is that you can twist it to mean what you want it to be. This is also an inherent problem with theme in a story, because you can twist it to mean something completely unrelated and irrelevant to the actual story itself. Granted, a theme or meaning doesn't actually have to be the one that the author originally intended it to be (for all we know, the bible writers could have made it up to control the masses); it could mean many things, depending on what you see in it. Just because I choose to see the literal interpretation doesn't necessarily mean I'm wrong about it. I just don't like how the bible is structured in such a way that words can mean such contrastingly different things. Usually, when you read a piece of literature, the ambiguity is not entirely different or won't have an effect on the reader that's drastically different.

And yes I have been commenting on each of your view points. but it's hardly to try and change your mind. I do it, so maybe you just might open your mind to understand what others see. You have your oppinion and I have mine, but to automatically throw something in the trash, just because you do not understand it like everyone else does is not the right thing to do. You can go up to almost any other Christian, and show or tell them what I have said here, and many may not agree with me. That is because I have my own veiw point of things. One that I have created myself. I have shared what I have come up with, with only a small number of people I know, andeven fewer understood what I have said. I am no prophet rying to convert people, I am just a man that tries to create understanding.
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I do know that you're not willing to see the literal interpretation of the bible because you've already accepted that God exists and you believe him to be loving and kind, so you wouldn't want any interpretation of him to destroy what you think of him. Which is probably the only reason you choose the metaphorical interpretation. If it's not, I'd like to hear it. In that same vein, I could say you're throwing the possibility that God is possibly a mass murderer or is unjust and not loving into the trash.

You take my word and say how they are wrong, while I have only taken yours, and said how it is seen in my eyes. I know that many christians believe in male dominance, because of what they read in the bible, but an even bigger majority of them think otherwise. So how can you say that Christians are sexist against women when many of them are women that have power in the word.
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I didn't say that Christians are sexist, but the bible is. What actually amuses me is how Christian women who give the bible any value at all can ignore or somehow convince themselves that this male dominance is either non existent or there, but are not really bothered by it. I do know that certain Christians don't believe what the bible says. I do know that certain Christians don't believe in heaven or hell. I do know that certain Christians denounce the atrocities and horrors of the Old Testament and admit it could be wrong. The only thing that binds Christians is their belief in God.
 
If Einstien did not believe in actual God, then why did he say things like, "When the solution is simple, God is answering."
"The most important function of art and science is to
Awaken the cosmic religious feeling and keep it alive."
"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."
Yes I know the last one is deist thought, but when you put it with other things that he has said, what does that tell you.
But yes he may have ended up a Deist, but that is still believing in a god. He just did not understand that god, and that is what being a deist is, knowing there is something out there That influenses life, but not being part of an orginized group. I have a lot of respect for Deists, since many were great scientific minds.
And those commandments that you have said are part of the Ten. As I have said before, They have been exchanged for two only. "The Lord your God is Lord alone." and "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
And Martyrs do not flog themselves. where did you ever here that. A martyr is someone who is killed for what they believe in, much like the early Christians, where they hid underground, and were hunted, just becaused they believed in something.
Saints oin the other hand, were not people to force religion on anyone. They only converted people who saw there example. They lived the Word, and people wanted to be like them, and that creates a sense of uneasiness in those in power, because they are losing their rule, just because so many people are following this one man or woman. That is why some became martyrs themselves. Many prophets, I will admit did go out and told people that the way they lived was wrong, and after their deaths, people began to follow their words.
Christian Women are not really bothered by the male dominace that is in the bible, because they do not concentrate on it, though they do except that it is there. They look at the one one message that the bible does give, which is to be good people.
Finally the statemnt that you said that I agree the most on is that last sentence, :"The only thing that binds Christians is their belief in God." This is very true, especially in this world that we live in today, but it not only binds Christians, but also Jew, Muslims, Hindus, etc. there are very few differenses, and that is why it is so easy for individuals from these different religions to become friends.

My last question is why do you attack the bible so? ou do not wish anyone to force there beliefs on you, then Why do you continue to argue that you are correct and I am wrong?If you do not wish to believe the teaching the bible is supposed to inspire in us, then why do you wish to keep talking about it. Everyone is alloud to there own oppinion, but when what you believe in is attacked, wouldn't you defend it?
 
DKnight said:
If Einstien did not believe in actual God, then why did he say things like, "When the solution is simple, God is answering."
"The most important function of art and science is to
Awaken the cosmic religious feeling and keep it alive."
"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble mind."
Yes I know the last one is deist thought, but when you put it with other things that he has said, what does that tell you.
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I didn't say he didn't believe in god; I just said he's not Christian. And if the solution were really simple, you'd have to wonder why you need God to answer it for you. That certainly doesn't sound like a Christian in need of God's help.

But yes he may have ended up a Deist, but that is still believing in a god. He just did not understand that god, and that is what being a deist is, knowing there is something out there That influenses life, but not being part of an orginized group. I have a lot of respect for Deists, since many were great scientific minds.
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I see you also don't know what a deist is. A deist is someone who believes that a god or creator of some sort exists. Perhaps they don't entirely know what that god is, but the key importance here is that this creator may have created the universe as we know it, and its intrinsic properties, but that creator does not interfere with the workings of that universe. This is in contrast to the Christian God that most people believe in, who interferes with people's lives, as detailed in the bible. So a deist believing in a god and a Christian believing in God are not at all the same. So you can see how science and deism are more likely able to coexist. We can discover the natural properties of the universe through science, and still say nothing about God, and the deist can still take what science says about the universe because the god they believe takes no part in that universe after its creation. Christianity cannot, despite what some scientists believe. Of course, a few of them like Faraday are careful enough to separate their religious belefs from their actual findings in science, so that what they believe is just a personal religion for their personal life; it's irrelevant to everything else. Even Newton, who believed he was working for Christianity had shown just the opposite.

And those commandments that you have said are part of the Ten. As I have said before, They have been exchanged for two only. "The Lord your God is Lord alone." and "You shall love your neighbor as yourself."
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This is the first set of commandments.

  1. I am the Lord thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
  2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me. And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
  3. Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain; for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.
  4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
  5. Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
  6. Thou shalt not kill.
  7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
  8. Thou shalt not steal.
  9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
  10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.
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And this is the second.

  1. Take heed to thyself, lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land whither thou goest, lest it be for a snare in the midst of thee: But ye shall destroy their altars, break their images, and cut down their groves: For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God: Lest thou make a covenant with the inhabitants of the land, and they go a whoring after their gods, and do sacrifice unto their gods, and one call thee, and thou eat of his sacrifice; And thou take of their daughters unto thy sons, and their daughters go a whoring after their gods, and make thy sons go a whoring after their gods.
  2. Thou shalt make thee no molten gods.
  3. The feast of unleavened bread shalt thou keep. Seven days thou shalt eat unleavened bread, as I commanded thee, in the time of the month Abib: for in the month Abib thou camest out from Egypt.
  4. All that openeth the matrix is mine; and every firstling among thy cattle, whether ox or sheep, that is male. But the firstling of an ass thou shalt redeem with a lamb: and if thou redeem him not, then shalt thou break his neck. All the firstborn of thy sons thou shalt redeem. And none shall appear before me empty.
  5. Six days thou shalt work, but on the seventh day thou shalt rest: in earing time and in harvest thou shalt rest.
  6. And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.
  7. Thrice in the year shall all your menchildren appear before the LORD God, the God of Israel. For I will cast out the nations before thee, and enlarge thy borders: neither shall any man desire thy land, when thou shalt go up to appear before the LORD thy God thrice in the year.
  8. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven; neither shall the sacrifice of the feast of the passover be left unto the morning.
  9. The first of the firstfruits of thy land thou shalt bring unto the house of the LORD thy God.
  10. Thou shalt not seethe a kid in his mother's milk.
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Can you now see where the commandment on the neighbors has now disappeared, and loving God has now turned into probably the only moral that God wants you to have? Can you see that thou shalt not kill and the one on adultery have now disappeared as well?

And Martyrs do not flog themselves. where did you ever here that. A martyr is someone who is killed for what they believe in, much like the early Christians, where they hid underground, and were hunted, just becaused they believed in something.
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That was their choice to kill themselves. Why they would do it, I have no idea. If they had any kind of a missionary life before, I can see why they'd do it.

Saints oin the other hand, were not people to force religion on anyone. They only converted people who saw there example. They lived the Word, and people wanted to be like them, and that creates a sense of uneasiness in those in power, because they are losing their rule, just because so many people are following this one man or woman. That is why some became martyrs themselves. Many prophets, I will admit did go out and told people that the way they lived was wrong, and after their deaths, people began to follow their words.
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On the flip side, it could also be said that the church uses this money they supposedly get through donations for their own good. In the medieval ages, the church often got the land and power they wanted to control the masses, and torture those who didn't believe. So of course they cherry picked a few people that would believe them and couldn't defend themselves. If you couldn't be converted and were labelled as a heretic, then those in power (either the people influenced by Christianity or the church itself) would torture or kill you and burn you, just because you didn't believe in God. And the saints didn't do anything about this.

Christian Women are not really bothered by the male dominace that is in the bible, because they do not concentrate on it, though they do except that it is there. They look at the one one message that the bible does give, which is to be good people.
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How does the bible say anything about being good people? By worshipping God mindlessly and not having any false idols before him? How does that make any man a good person? You are a good person because you are honest and are good towards other people, regardless of who they are, and don't intervene with their business if it has nothing to do with you. People only think it's being good because doing otherwise results in punishment, but it's really just a blackmail; not a moral statement.

Finally the statemnt that you said that I agree the most on is that last sentence, :"The only thing that binds Christians is their belief in God." This is very true, especially in this world that we live in today, but it not only binds Christians, but also Jew, Muslims, Hindus, etc. there are very few differenses, and that is why it is so easy for individuals from these different religions to become friends.
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There are actually lots. Hindus don't have a religion that is definitely polytheistic or monotheistic; it is arguably both. Christianity is strictly monotheistic. Its creation story is different from the Christian one, and their holy text outlines different things. They also don't preach religious intolerance. I haven't heard of a hindu preaching to other people who don't have a religion. I haven't heard of a Hindu missionary before. Some people might even feel insulted that you're claiming that Christianity is not too different from their own religion. The three monotheistic religions, Judaism, Christianity and Islamic faith might actually be comparable because of their similarities, but a Muslim might actually feel offended that you're relating Jesus with their Muhammed the prophet (and someone please correct me if I'm wrong because my memory is failing me), and that God is Allah; there is no trinity. These three religions may have similar roots, but Hinduism, Confucianism and Greek religion don't all follow the same roots. In fact, their civilizations from which they stem are too physically far apart for them to have been related in any way at all. They simply share similar elements because they are explanations of observations made up from little or nothing. So just because someone is Christian doesn't necessarily mean they agree with you. Otherwise those fights over the Promised Land wouldn't have happened, and Jews wouldn't be discriminated against.

My last question is why do you attack the bible so? ou do not wish anyone to force there beliefs on you, then Why do you continue to argue that you are correct and I am wrong?If you do not wish to believe the teaching the bible is supposed to inspire in us, then why do you wish to keep talking about it. Everyone is alloud to there own oppinion, but when what you believe in is attacked, wouldn't you defend it?
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The problem with the bible and some of the people that believe in it is that they preach religious intolerance. I wouldn't have a problem if people choose to believe in Christianity and don't interfere with the religion I wish to have, but they must realize that their bible teaches religious intolerance against those that aren't Christian, and I wish for people to acknowledge, or at least admit that the bible is doing this. Or if you don't, you can at least not force me to believe in Christianity. As I have said, and I'll say it again for good measure: believe what you want, but don't intervene on what other people believe if it's not the same as what you believe.

Furthermore, this is an intelligent discussion and debate forum. I can choose to debate about what I see in the bible if I choose to.
 
I was born and raised as a Roamn Catholic.
I do not belive in organised religion. To me all religions are right becasue all religious texts were written by someones point of view. All religions also have the same basic principles and guidelines to follow.

I haven't read all the religious texts that out there, this is just comming from the few I have read. Now with the above being said I do believe that there is a higher power be it God or Gods (whichever you choose to believe or not) that created this wonderful universe we all share.

Until relgious leaders around the world can come to understanding that their point of view isn't better than the others person point of view and that they are saying basically the same thing, I will not associate myself to any particular faith or religious group.
 
Im muslim therefore I beleive strongly in god, his prophets, his angels and his book, the Qu'ran. I havent read it all but as being in a muslim country and being a muslim I have to take islamic studies in school. There is alot of proof that a book that was descended from god 1400 years ago has alot of scientific evidence that scientists just recently figured out like that river water and ocean/sea/salty water dont mix together and there is no scientific explination to it, even if there was muslims knew about it a very long time ago. Many other events written in the Qu'ran were also proved correct recently, like that there were bodies buried deep in the ground (not so old homo sapiens skeletons) below israel that were from the exact date that was recorded in the Qu'ran when God got furious at the Israeli people and fliped the earth upon them burying them deep underneath.
I shall continue in my next post.
 
I have seen those "scientific" claims the Qu'ran makes. I can assure you that they're in no way, scientific at all. I know this because anyone who really knows what science and the scientific method is will know why it isn't true. I can refer you to my article about why the Qu'ran isn't scientific, since it fits the bill for being a holy text.

In summary, the Qu'ran is not scientific because it does not follow the scientific method; it gets the conclusion before the evidence, which is the reverse of the way the scientific method works. Also, the Qu'ran makes ambiguous references to the ages of the universe and Earth and other things we know through science, but they are not an accurate source of information, and "waits" for science to find it first.

Of course, just because the Qu'ran isn't scientific doesn't mean you're not entitled to continue believing in it.
 
I am an athiest. I don't believe there is a God that rules the universe. I do however believe religion is a great tool in helping people transition into death. Most religions talk about a peaceful place, etc.
 
I'm nearest to being an agnostic. Because I can find no evidence to prove god's exsistence but neither has anyone conclusively proven he dose not exist I don't believe in either. While some organized religions are indeed benign a lot of them are steeped in intolerence, ingnorance and indoctrination. Others are just plain silly going around tellling people to "you're going to hell" if they don't do exactly as they say. I believe that people have a right to whatever religious beliefs they as long as they aren't used to enforce themselves on others.
 
Sephiroth said:
I have seen those "scientific" claims the Qu'ran makes. I can assure you that they're in no way, scientific at all. I know this because anyone who really knows what science and the scientific method is will know why it isn't true. I can refer you to my article about why the Qu'ran isn't scientific, since it fits the bill for being a holy text.

In summary, the Qu'ran is not scientific because it does not follow the scientific method; it gets the conclusion before the evidence, which is the reverse of the way the scientific method works. Also, the Qu'ran makes ambiguous references to the ages of the universe and Earth and other things we know through science, but they are not an accurate source of information, and "waits" for science to find it first.

Of course, just because the Qu'ran isn't scientific doesn't mean you're not entitled to continue believing in it.
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looks like im not very good at detailing my point, theres lots of evidence in the Qu'ran but as I said i havent read it all so im just briefly stating it. Im not syaing it is scientific just proving that it is right because science or people found out the stuff written in the Qu'ran from long time ago. Science isint always right though......
 
Tidus_Blade said:
looks like im not very good at detailing my point, theres lots of evidence in the Qu'ran but as I said i havent read it all so im just briefly stating it. Im not syaing it is scientific just proving that it is right because science or people found out the stuff written in the Qu'ran from long time ago. Science isint always right though......
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No, science isn't always right, but if the Qu'ran were "always right", then it's not scientific.
 
Sephiroth said:
No, science isn't always right, but if the Qu'ran were "always right", then it's not scientific.
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I never said it was scientific, I said it was proven by science and because many people believe in science i decide to refer it to you. I know it's wrong but no holy book came after the Qu'ran. So science would kind of mean you people because you wouldnt beleive in something written in the Quran unless verified by science. Sorry if this might offend anyone, it's a sensitive topic anyways.
 
Not necessarily. Apparently, I once read somewhere that the Qu'ran states that there was a point in the Earth's history where it was flat, but at no time was the Earth ever considered "flat" according to science. And then there's the question of the existence of God/Allah, which is something which science makes no claims about either. You also can't assume this is true just because some things in the Qu'ran have been "confirmed" by science.
 
I'm an athiest. I don't believe in religion at all. I see it much as a false hope and a reason for why we do the things we do. Good things happen to us and it's percieved as a miracle or blessing. Bad things happen to us and it's a punishment or influenced by "the devil" or some evil spirit. I know not all people share that logic but pretty much that's what religion has turned into.

Back on the more original topic I see religion as a reason to explain things. These morals found our country and laws, blah blah blah. I just don't see a reward in believing in a savior and there having to be a reason why we exist on this planet. I don't like the idea of being born into this world and oweing someone worship because they 'died' on a cross so that I may repent for my sins. Sin? Ha.
 
I am an agnostic Objectivist-Reasonist and all my reasons for being so have already been stated by Verae Tenebrae and Sephiroth.
 
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