The Downfall of Final Fantasy.

[Donald Trump]

As a previous poster mentioned, Square Enix IS a corporation, and their job is to bring in money. They can't just make games for free. Well they could, but they would end up with the quality of a three day old turd. Don't blame them for wanting to make money. Would you not do whatever you could to bring in money if you were them?

I disagree with your reasoning here. Yes they are a company and yes their main aim is to make mega bucks so that the shareholders can drive around in fast cars and so that they can trade in their old wives for hot new young ones. Just because they're trying to make money doesn't absolve them, if that were true it would be impossible to criticise anything. Oh that movie with Jennifer Anniston in was shit, but it's not the fault of James Cameron, he was just trying to make money etc etc. I'm sure you get the point, trying to make money isn't an excuse or defence for anything.
Infact the best way to make money is by creating games that people like people like. If the first FF game was crap there would be no FF series. Although I don't think Square Enix are the money grabbing whores that is often suggested. If they were they'd have remade FFVII by now. They'd have probably remade it a few times.

I haven't bothered to read the whole thread as I'm lazy and I'm sure it's all much of muchness. I don't think people are suggesting SE don't try new things, at least I hope not. They're saying they think they've gone too far, a compromise between the new and the old. That's not my problem with 12 and 13, my problem is that I don't think they're particularly good, not because they're tried too many new things though. I think they've ignored the basics, good characters and a good plot. I thought the characters in 12 and 13 were terrible, and the writing is abysmal. The dialogue in FF13 was unbelievably bad, so many moments of sentimental shite. It was like watching a day time soap, minus the sex of course.

As far as the quality of their games, that is strictly opinion. I do not speak for other people, and surely none of you speak for me. In fact, my least favorite game is one of the most liked games, and that is IX. My favorite, and in my opinion, the best, is IV.

Quality is entirely subjective, but that's the point of forums, to exchange points of view. The new battle systems being a good example, I dislike them, and you may love them.

Personally I'm not sure SE have it in them to make a good FF game. I thought 12 was poor, I think 13 is worse.

 

[bearsfwd]

I disagree with your reasoning here. Yes they are a company and yes their main aim is to make mega bucks so that the shareholders can drive around in fast cars and so that they can trade in their old wives for hot new young ones. Just because they're trying to make money doesn't absolve them, if that were true it would be impossible to criticise anything. Oh that movie with Jennifer Anniston in was shit, but it's not the fault of James Cameron, he was just trying to make money etc etc. I'm sure you get the point, trying to make money isn't an excuse or defence for anything.
Infact the best way to make money is by creating games that people like people like. If the first FF game was crap there would be no FF series. Although I don't think Square Enix are the money grabbing whores that is often suggested. If they were they'd have remade FFVII by now. They'd have probably remade it a few times.

Oh, I agree, with their job being to make money and produce games we like, that doesn't absolve them. But the thing is, it's not like they are releasing games that we WON'T like on purpose. I'm pretty sure they are trying to find things that we like and things that we don't, so that in future games, the know what TO do and NOT to do. Like I said, if they do something that you don't like, that is your opinion, not every one else's. I hear so many people say things like "Oh, Final Fantasy has been dead since [game number]." I'm sorry you feel that way, but that is not a fact.

As I mentioned later in my previous post, if they never tried anything new, where would the series be? Dead and long gone. A lot of the gripes I see about XIII is that it "doesn't feel like a FF game", which roughly translated to "SquareEnix tried too many new things, so now this game doesn't feel like a FF game to me, so I don't like it". That's all fine and dandy, but you can't blame them for trying something different so that their product doesn't stagnate and die because it never ever changed.

 

[OzDok]

I'm just gonna leap to the defence of X-2 here in case it isn't on the exceptions list. While i can understand other not-really-sequels sequels not being up to the mark, X-2 was a good game. It may not have been as good as FFX, but it was a nice addition, and the fact that they made some reasonably big changes from the usual FF's makes it a bit more special.

I reckon it's kinda weird having cloud and Squall as sub-characters in Kingdom hearts too.....they deserve better than that.

NO. NO IT REALLY WASN'T. IT WAS PRETTY PRINCESS DRESS-ME-UP FOR £40.

And as for KH, it isn't Final Fantasy and it isn't supposed to be. That's why FF characters are in more side-roles.

 

[Guernsey]

Oh, I agree, with their job being to make money and produce games we like, that doesn't absolve them. But the thing is, it's not like they are releasing games that we WON'T like on purpose. I'm pretty sure they are trying to find things that we like and things that we don't, so that in future games, the know what TO do and NOT to do. Like I said, if they do something that you don't like, that is your opinion, not every one else's. I hear so many people say things like "Oh, Final Fantasy has been dead since [game number]." I'm sorry you feel that way, but that is not a fact.

As a company is their job to make money, I agree largely with what you said. Another thing I like to point out and its key factor is the audience, Final Fantasy games had always been for everyone of all ages but mostly kids play nintendo systems. Some of us who are now adults (or going to be adults) are not always going to find time play final fantasy unlike the new generation of gamers. Sure, as adults we caa make time to play games but we have responsiblities now and we cannot always play final fantasy games. Square Enix knows that so that try to experiment with things that would appeal to the new generation as well as older fans but as some posters pointed out we cannot please everyone and something is bound to get lost to fans.

 

[Ness]

There's a quote by Abraham Lincoln that I'll take a slight derivative of:

"You can make all of the people happy some of the time, you can make some of the people happy all of the time, but you can't make all of the people happy all of the time."

I think this holds true for the "new direction" that SE has taken the FF series. I believe that if they had kept making variants of FF6 for twenty years, customers would have been fed up with them. Think of the great innovation that was the Materia system. FF7 was a large jump for SE but it paid huge dividends...and innovation was not the reason.

Any RPG worth its salt has a good story. Let's face facts: the gameplay elements are generally a means to an end. I will put myself out on a limb and say that I enjoyed playing FF12 and FF13 in a pure sense...i.e. I found their combat systems to be not terrible. The characters and story, however, were certainly lackluster compared to such titles as, say FF6.

SE is trying to adapt to this new generation of gaming and it isn't necessarily working. I'd like to think that the new gamers rising up to take our place still cherish good storytelling...or it won't just be FF that is dead and gone, it'll be RPGs as a genre.

 

[Altair]

I certainly agree with you that the quality of the series has gone down allot. While the Graphics are stunning, there has not been a real final fantasy game in a while. While XIII had good Graphics and an original storyline, It was not a game deserving of the title. Certanly a good game but not an FF.

I also agree that the MMO titles should not have been numbered. An endless game may be fun for a while, but what is the true point of it.

FFX was the last Final Fantasy deserving the title. They had reached the peak of creativity, and standing on top of Mt. Gagazet they realized that Final fantasy would make money no matter what they did, and they triped on a rock and started the downward tumble.

I'm not even going to mention X-2. XII was definatly a Final Fantasy. It had all the traditional elements. It made me feel like I was actually playing an RPG. You could develop your charecters the way you want to. There was allot of game to be played through. There were npc's that you could interact with. The only negative thing was that while the storyline was a bit lengthy, it wasn't that good.

I'm not even going to bother with XIV, I think I will just wait until XV to see if they can pull it together.

 

[Tom Badguy]

Someone give OzDok a medal. I agree with him 100%.

Final Fantasy is in some kind of dark period.

I understand how S-Enix wants to expand the franchise and adapt to the next generation of gaming, but somewhere along the line they lost the soul of Final Fantasy. The games nowadays just seem to be visual appealing. Important components like story, development, even gameplay has just tanked.

I think the franchise has gone down after IX. X, XII and XIII were just disgraces. X didn't really go too far from the basics of FF, but none of it was any good. Just a game of bad ideas. XII was just ridiculous. Did any actually play this game and care about what was going on? XIII was just SO LINEAR I couldn't even finish the game. Who wants to walk down a hallway for 60 game hours?

As for the Online Final Fantasy games? WORST IDEA, EVER. Nothing makes them special compared to other MMO's except that Final Fantasy is pasted in the title.

I think the time of the old school FF is dead. The creators are trying too many new things and failing. Even if they did go back to what Final Fantasy used to be, would anyone still care to give it a shot?

The ship has sunk. Sad to say, but it's true.

 

[Kei]

Bleh, all of you whine a lot, what makes you say this isn't "Final Fantasy"-like or anything, sure the old gameplay system was superb and I really enjoy every RPG game with that gameplay style.

My opinion, FFXII had a great storyline when it comes to Baltheir and Ashe. However, Vaan and Penelo completely blew it up for me, in my own perspective those 2 characters had NOTHING to do with the storyline... Wait, Penelo had a bit of things related to storyline but Vaan if you removed him the only thing that would be affected is prolly the word Vaan from the subtitles or the voices... Gameplay, I didn't like much but it was okay, you get used to it.

FFXIII, had a slow start. However, it improved, sure there wasn't that much of a backstory for the characters but I thought the storyline is okay, it's bearable, except the stupid lines of Snow "Serah this, Serah that", the linearity screwed it up for me but I believe FFXIII-2 might be better since they are down there, I thought Gran Pulse was a GREAT world, Archylette Steppe map was amazing and I love the missions. I hated the fact that I had no control over the other characters, but I got used to it later on, and I enjoy it so far.

SE sure did a bad job on FFXII and FFXIII but it was to try new things, they might realise it later on if the funds stop flowing in. Honestly, I'm expecting much of Versus XIII, I don't care if the storyline is shit, I though KH story is shit. However that active battle style kept me enjoyed. FF Type-0 will entertain me too, it will be the first game in a while that I will play on PSP.

 

[Tom Badguy]

However, Vaan and Penelo completely blew it up for me, in my own perspective those 2 characters had NOTHING to do with the storyline...

Thank you! Finally, someone else that actually acknowledges this.

 

[bearsfwd]

Sadly, people seem to be treating their opinions of FF being dead like they are facts, but their not.

The fact is, Final Fantasy will be dead when Square Enix says it is. As long as they make Final Fantasy games, there will still be people that buy them, and some of those people that buy them will be people who constantly nag about how much the series is sucking.

What's really a shame is the fact that Square Enix just HAD to put a few games that people deemed as "The best FF ever", and now, everyone holds new games to the standards those few games set. I mean, that's like eating the best apple you've ever eaten, and then saying oranges suck because you haven't found one better than that one apple. Maybe not everyone does that, but I'm sure there are plenty of people that do.

 

[Roland_Deschain]

I put it plain and simple, the title and the copyrights are owned by this coorperation and whatever they create for us fans will be known and recognized as a final fantasy game. There are several paths to take this personally. #1 continue playing these well merited games and be open to the changes which the "owners" have chosen to take the direction towards. (Its what I do) #2 quit playing the games indefinately. They will always be final fantasy games regardless if they are the same as your favorites or not. When you mention World of warcraft people dont automatically think about the original games that came first, final fantasy is is the same way except some of the favored titles came first, and its your own expectations and neglection to change that holds you back from enjoying the change. Honestly some of my favorite titles ar ethe old ones.....but it doesnt mean I want to forever play them. A tip of my hat to the marketing experts that keep people playing based soely on curiousity of what will come next.

 

[Tom Badguy]

I put it plain and simple, the title and the copyrights are owned by this coorperation and whatever they create for us fans will be known and recognized as a final fantasy game. There are several paths to take this personally. #1 continue playing these well merited games and be open to the changes which the "owners" have chosen to take the direction towards. (Its what I do) #2 quit playing the games indefinately. They will always be final fantasy games regardless if they are the same as your favorites or not. When you mention World of warcraft people dont automatically think about the original games that came first, final fantasy is is the same way except some of the favored titles came first, and its your own expectations and neglection to change that holds you back from enjoying the change. Honestly some of my favorite titles ar ethe old ones.....but it doesnt mean I want to forever play them. A tip of my hat to the marketing experts that keep people playing based soely on curiousity of what will come next.

So basically you're saying, either deal with it or quit playing? So, gamers shouldn't have an opinion? It's my understanding that game companies make games based on what the FANS want. Especially with a game franchise like Final Fantasy. If you are disgruntled, then say it loud. If no one complained or had an opinion, then most games would be terrible. If game companies didn't care about what the consumer was interested in, then they wouldn't make money.

So with an epic franchise such as Final Fantasy, fan input is important because anybody who is anybody knows how big an impact Final Fantasy has in the Gaming Community.

 

[bearsfwd]

So basically you're saying, either deal with it or quit playing? So, gamers shouldn't have an opinion? It's my understanding that game companies make games based on what the FANS want. Especially with a game franchise like Final Fantasy. If you are disgruntled, then say it loud. If no one complained or had an opinion, then most games would be terrible. If game companies didn't care about what the consumer was interested in, then they wouldn't make money.

So with an epic franchise such as Final Fantasy, fan input is important because anybody who is anybody knows how big an impact Final Fantasy has in the Gaming Community.

Saying that the series is dead is not giving Square Enix feedback though.

If you want to give them feedback, the first thing you have to do is explain what is it about said games that you don't like. How can they improve something if the only feedback they get is "This game sucks"?

My problem is with the people who say that the series is dead like that is fact, which it is not. You're entitled to that opinion, but when someone tries to defend the series, you have to back up your opinion with legitimate reasons.

I agree with Free_Lancer. If you complain just to complain without giving any good feedback (and saying stuff like "the game sucked" or "the characters sucked" or "the story sucked" isn't good feedback...WHY did they suck) your only options are to either quit playing or suck it up.

Like I said, unless you specify what you think the problem is, they can't take steps to improve it. Thankfully, there are people out there that do that, and they tend to be the people who don't shout from the rooftops how much the game sucks any chance they get.

 

[Tom Badguy]

I agree with Free_Lancer. If you complain just to complain without giving any good feedback (and saying stuff like "the game sucked" or "the characters sucked" or "the story sucked" isn't good feedback...WHY did they suck) your only options are to either quit playing or suck it up.

It is an obvious fact that to make a case is to have a legitimate argument with facts. So let the discussion continue with this as a known fact.

I think SE should take a step for developing future games the way EA did with the Madden games. They went above and beyond to make Madden 11 really based on what the fans wanted. They enhanced their tackling system, the statistics for the players, added an Online Co-Op mode, and more. And if you watch the development videos, they took most of their inspirations and ideas from the fans. The evaluated great deals of information from their official site(forums, e-mail, etc.) as well as in game testing.

SE should make a better project workshop that hits the fan base harder than any other company ever has before. They should really hit all audiences instead of what seems to be just the next gen audience.

Most defenders of recent Final Fantasy installments say that they are trying new ideas specifically in the form of gameplay. But lets look at the recent battle style changes for the last 4 FF installments:

XI & XIV: Online, MMORPG
XII: A real time battle system kind of like an MMORPG and kind of like KOTOR(Knights of the Old Republic) mushed together
XIII: A somewhat X-2 turn base style with the P-Shifts

The styles have drastically changed with each new installment(XIV doesn't really count considering it's an MMO and XI was the first one so it's at least going back to a previously used style). The games are separating from its roots and the feeling that you are playing Final Fantasy is drifting away. If SE wants to change something in FF, then they should make it gradual.

Example:

VI: This game used Relics which allowed you to gain AP to learn Spells/Abilities. You can only equip two but once you learned them, you had them forever. This was VI's unique system at the time. A new idea.

VII: Out of VI grew VII's Materia system. The same concept but with some differences.

And VI and VII are known to some as the best FFs ever and even the best games ever made. If SE is going to introduce an idea, then it should carry on and/or enhance it for the next installment. New ideas are great. But when I'm in Chapter 8 in XIII and it's giving me tutorials it is sickening.

Final Fantasy is dead because it has lost its perspective on how to make a Final Fantasy game.

But who knows. Maybe somebody with cast "Life" and the whole franchise will be reborn. I just think they need to take a step back and evaluate "is this what our fans want?"

 

[Donald Trump]

I agree with Free_Lancer. If you complain just to complain without giving any good feedback (and saying stuff like "the game sucked" or "the characters sucked" or "the story sucked" isn't good feedback...WHY did they suck) your only options are to either quit playing or suck it up.

Like I said, unless you specify what you think the problem is, they can't take steps to improve it. Thankfully, there are people out there that do that, and they tend to be the people who don't shout from the rooftops how much the game sucks any chance they get.

I disagree slightly, it's not really the job of fans to tell SE what to put in their games. Each fan is going to have a different idea of what they believe the best possible story or character is. The fans say they dislike the story, then they should change it. Ask each fan why and they'll each give you different reasons. I'm aware that what I've said is slightly contradictory, but I think more people than not have disliked the stories of 12 and 13, therefore they should try to make the next plot and characters dissimilar from the plot etc of FF 12 and 13. It's often hard to pinpoint the problem, FF12 for example, I found the story dull, uninspiring etc. Why? I don't know, perhaps a failure to make characters that one could empathise with. Why couldn't I empathise with them? Again, I'm not sure, because they were dull? Because they didn't feel like real people. Why didn't they feel like real people etc etc. That's just my opinion, other people who dislike FF12 might have completely different reasons, but may agree that the story was unsatisfying.

What's really a shame is the fact that Square Enix just HAD to put a few games that people deemed as "The best FF ever", and now, everyone holds new games to the standards those few games set. I mean, that's like eating the best apple you've ever eaten, and then saying oranges suck because you haven't found one better than that one apple. Maybe not everyone does that, but I'm sure there are plenty of people that do.

I disagree. Firstly because I think the reason people keep buying FF games is because they hope that they will be as good as the very best ones.
Also SE may not be able to match the greatness of Square's truly great games, but they should still be able to make good games. People aren't complaining because they're making good games and not great games. They're complaining because they're making poor games. I get your point that in comparison to say, FFVII, that FFXIII may seem worse than it actually is. It certainly does these newer games no favours, but the games are being based upon their own merits alone, not in comparison to previous FF games. FF games are always going to be compared to other FF games, but that doesn't change the fact that FFXIII is not a good game.
I use the word fact advisedly.

 

[Shaissa]

Reading all this Final Fantasy "sucks" stuff, it really has me wondering something, is it Final Fantasy that "sucks" or is it the fact that Rpg's in general are "sucking" I mean games are becoming more "action" and less "story" oriented I believe Look at the top selling games for the three systems so far...

PS3 Top selling games are Grand Turismo 5, Call of duty MW2, Uncharted 2, and Call of duty Black ops.

Xbox 360 top selling games are Halo 3, Call of duty MW2 then Both Gears of Wars

Wii top selling games are Wii Sports, Wii play, Wii Mario Kart.

Now I'm not saying RPG's arn't selling, I'm saying that games that are selling are the "action pack" games, or the "interactive" games as the wii is concern, and all rpg companies are trying to meet the demand for this more action generation which I believe FFXIII was doing, it is a lot more action pack from past FF games, less thinking more action seems to be what most games are like now days.

So not to say that Final Fantasy is doing the right thing, I'm saying there looking at the generation of gamers that are really buying games now.

 

[OzDok]

Reading all this Final Fantasy "sucks" stuff, it really has me wondering something, is it Final Fantasy that "sucks" or is it the fact that Rpg's in general are "sucking" I mean games are becoming more "action" and less "story" oriented I believe Look at the top selling games for the three systems so far...

PS3 Top selling games are Grand Turismo 5, Call of duty MW2, Uncharted 2, and Call of duty Black ops.

Xbox 360 top selling games are Halo 3, Call of duty MW2 then Both Gears of Wars

Wii top selling games are Wii Sports, Wii play, Wii Mario Kart.

Now I'm not saying RPG's arn't selling, I'm saying that games that are selling are the "action pack" games, or the "interactive" games as the wii is concern, and all rpg companies are trying to meet the demand for this more action generation which I believe FFXIII was doing, it is a lot more action pack from past FF games, less thinking more action seems to be what most games are like now days.

So not to say that Final Fantasy is doing the right thing, I'm saying there looking at the generation of gamers that are really buying games now.

RPGs have never really been at the top of the selling lists, with a few exceptions. The reason why those games are at the top of the lists is because they're easy to pick up and play straight off, rather than an involved storyline game that you need to have a few hours of intensive gaming on.

 

[Shaissa]

RPGs have never really been at the top of the selling lists, with a few exceptions. The reason why those games are at the top of the lists is because they're easy to pick up and play straight off, rather than an involved storyline game that you need to have a few hours of intensive gaming on.

Pokemon, Final Fantasy, Dragon Quest have always been a top seller's

Now granted I do think FF XIII is a top seller for the PS3, I'm saying that if you don't meet the majority of what people want which is more action believe it or not, your going sell far less, im sorry but even now RPGers want more action less...turn base less random battles, they want more of an action feel to it.

 

[Tom Badguy]

Reading all this Final Fantasy "sucks" stuff, it really has me wondering something, is it Final Fantasy that "sucks" or is it the fact that Rpg's in general are "sucking" I mean games are becoming more "action" and less "story" oriented I believe Look at the top selling games for the three systems so far...

PS3 Top selling games are Grand Turismo 5, Call of duty MW2, Uncharted 2, and Call of duty Black ops.

Xbox 360 top selling games are Halo 3, Call of duty MW2 then Both Gears of Wars

Wii top selling games are Wii Sports, Wii play, Wii Mario Kart.

Now I'm not saying RPG's arn't selling, I'm saying that games that are selling are the "action pack" games, or the "interactive" games as the wii is concern, and all rpg companies are trying to meet the demand for this more action generation which I believe FFXIII was doing, it is a lot more action pack from past FF games, less thinking more action seems to be what most games are like now days.

So not to say that Final Fantasy is doing the right thing, I'm saying there looking at the generation of gamers that are really buying games now.

Don't forget two other top selling games for the 360, Fable and Mass Effect. Which can pretty much be filed under Action/RPG. They have great success. But I see where you're going. FF games are trying to target a wider audience which I think is distracting the games from its former glory. This can make a product appealing to more people but leaves something to be desired from the more faithful audience.

Dare I make a comparison to the X-Men movies. It would be great to have a comic book movie dedicated to the original story 100% but in order to make money and target every audience, you really can't. That's where you get the mess of the X-Men movies. Changed stories, different character backgrounds, if you've seen them you know what I mean. It's the same with Final Fantasy. It targets a wider audience but the product isn't that great and is a step down in the eyes of old school gamers like myself.

Hope that makes sense.

 

[Chivalry Augustus]

I always saw Final Fantasy games as story-based drama, albeit one in which you're a willing passenger. Some will look at the gameplay and the mechanics and say that some of the next-gen (starting at VII) Final Fantasies pushed the boundaries of gaming ahead of their time. Don't get me wrong, they did do that. But what Final Fantasy did first and did best was the plot. They managed to move the gameplay along at a good rate of knots and devise interesting means and methods of developing your character in-game, without really developing them at all. The interesting part of a Final Fantasy game is what I call the revelation. The point at which it all comes out. Where all that sweat and toil you've put into the controller is made worthwhile by 'the prestige', the moment at which you understand why you've put your characters through the ringer. The good thing about some FFs is that they have the bluff and double bluff. But by and large you start out with small-time characters caught up in big-time, whirlwind events. Slowly, things unfold, and finding out key plot facts is much more interesting than beating that big boss.

Add to that the non-linear elements like sidequests, some of which add backgrounds to your character's lives, as well as the opportunity to wander the world and increase your strength and abilities. There was so much depth to the first Final Fantasy games I played. Wandering into that FF world for the first time, getting on to the big, World Map screen, was like being liberated from the kinds of games I had ever played before. Apart from that there was only one other ingredient to elevate Final Fantasy above the best of the best. The music. Music was able to make some of these games. There's a good seventy to eighty tunes caught up across most FFs, and almost all of them will reverberate around your head when you're out and about on your 'normal business'. It's a kind of hook, subliminal messaging almost, that drags you back into the game. Every time I decide to go back and replay a Final Fantasy is when one of the tunes suddenly switches on in my brain, and I'm like "what a game." Nowadays, I don't feel as if the FFs have all these ingredients. There's usually something missing.

Maybe they've gone a bit linear. Maybe they're too much of a good thing. Games have to change and evolve and do the old things in better ways if they're to continue to develop.