Zack vs. Cloud: Who's Stronger?

[Apparent Amarant]

So they both could have theoretically reached Sephiroth like strength and even sprouted a wing if they wanted? Obviously Cloud did by AC.

Thanks for answering that question by the way. I couldn't remember correctly and it was bothering me.

 

[HighwindPilot]

So they both could have theoretically reached Sephiroth like strength and even sprouted a wing if they wanted? Obviously Cloud did by AC.

Thanks for answering that question by the way. I couldn't remember correctly and it was bothering me.

I'm sorry, I was wrong about that. Well, okay, this may have been retconned by CC (although I don't think it was), but...

Spoiler

When Cloud is explaining to everyone the truth about his past, he states, "I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure used to create someone in SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells..."

So actually, Zack, and all SOLDIER members, were juiced with the cells all along. Which then raises question as to why none of them ever sprouted the wings of the Big 3 or quite matched them in strength? It would seem individual potential or strength does weigh in greater to achieve what you mentioned, because all members of SOLDIER would seem to have the necessary "sources"..

Sorry about the prior innacuracy.

 

[Six]

I can't help but think the following;

So we all know that Cloud thought he was Zack in the beginning of VII, after a while he came to realization, and all was good again. He got stronger, both mentally and physically.

I strongly believe that if they were to have a 'match' up to date, Zack would say something along the lines.

"Woah, soldier, got quite some power there, huh?", while being suprised with how well Cloud fights now. In all honesty, I think Cloud is now stronger.

I think they'd end it friendly, either that or Zack would admit defeat, and be at peace with Cloud being stronger. I honestly can't imagine Zack winning from Cloud anymore.

All was said, and based on my own opinion. So don't even start killing me over what was said above. xD

 

[Apparent Amarant]

I can't help but think the following;

So we all know that Cloud thought he was Zack in the beginning of VII, after a while he came to realization, and all was good again. He got stronger, both mentally and physically.

I strongly believe that if they were to have a 'match' up to date, Zack would say something along the lines.

"Woah, soldier, got quite some power there, huh?", while being suprised with how well Cloud fights now. In all honesty, I think Cloud is now stronger.

I think they'd end it friendly, either that or Zack would admit defeat, and be at peace with Cloud being stronger. I honestly can't imagine Zack winning from Cloud anymore.

All was said, and based on my own opinion. So don't even start killing me over what was said above. xD

I think you will find a majority of people in this thread agreeing with you. Zack stopped growing stronger when died so I think Cloud passed him by quite a bit. I don't think they would ever fight if they were alive, because they are both good. If Square did something like turn Zack bad and bring him back it would be so far-fetched and against his character that it would make no sense. I actually think that Cloud turning bad would make more sense because there is more darkness and melancholy to him. All of the real villains have possessed traits like that even before turning bad.

When Cloud is explaining to everyone the truth about his past, he states, "I'm physically built like someone in SOLDIER. Hojo's plan to clone Sephiroth wasn't that difficult. It was just the same procedure used to create someone in SOLDIER. You see, someone in SOLDIER isn't simply exposed to Mako energy. Their bodies are actually injected with Jenova cells..." So actually, Zack, and all SOLDIER members, were juiced with the cells all along. Which then raises question as to why none of them ever sprouted the wings of the Big 3 or quite matched them in strength? It would seem individual potential or strength does weigh in greater to achieve what you mentioned, because all members of SOLDIER would seem to have the necessary "sources"..

There has to be some sort of difference between them because Cloud did become as strong as Sephiroth and stronger then Angeal and Genesis. So there must be a different between them. If not then it's just another tragic plot hole.

What is that quote from CC,VII, or AC ?

 

[leapyear29]

Well, although I think Zack is a much better person, I think Cloud is stronger based on the story. In the game, Sephiroth is "killed" by Cloud, but Sephiroth had the power to defeat Zack. However, it could be argued that Cloud was only stronger at that time because Cloud was in a state of amazing rage, and that Zack is actually stronger. I still say Cloud though, even though I like Zack a lot more..

 

[Platinum_Lies]

Cloud is the strongest in the FFVII universe... he survived where all the others people are talking about have lost or died. Though Genesis could be a beast, but we wouldn't know until they deal with the events after DoC.

Had Zack survived, he would easily outclass Cloud. He was practically on par with Sephiroth before the unfortunate run in with an entire army...

 

[LittleMissDismissed]

Barret was the strongest, but between the two metro-sexuals I would go with Zack. Cloud is too emotionless and lacks passion, however Zack is filled with purpose and willful fire. Honestly what did Cloud even fight for by the end of the game, he didn't even care about his mom dying and never complained about Sephiroth killing off his hometown, he just kind of decided that he wanted to beat the crap out of him for no reason. Zack on the other hand hated Sephiroth for hurting the town people and actually KNEW him when he was an emotionless "good" guy/metro-sexual (he probably even cared about Cloud's mom more than Cloud did).

Not only Sephiroth, Cloud also showed no emotion to anything at any point in the game, hell he made Vincent look like as upbeat as DJ Lance from Yo Gabba Gabba to me (since Vincent knew Seph's mother he had even more purpose than Cloud).
Zack showed passion for everything and gave you the feeling that he wanted to win and he cares what will happen if he didn't defeat *insert villian/monster here*. I think Zack's drive would give him a huge advantage over Cloud if they were to fight.

 

[HighwindPilot]

What is that quote from CC,VII, or AC ?

That quote is from VII. It directly proceeds "The Lifestream arc" when Cloud and Tifa are both back on the Highwind. They're in the briefing room and he begins explaining his past.

 

[The Witch]

Did Zack beat Sephiroth? No.



Cloud's stronger. :aerith:Hands down.

 

[CrisisGenesis]

Did Zack beat Sephiroth? No.



Cloud's stronger. :aerith:Hands down.

OMIGOSSHH heheh. Thats cause ZACK DIED TRYING TO PROTECT CLOUD
if zack wasnt there then there would be no cloud. I believe if Zack didn't die he could have gone and beaten sephiroth instead of cloud

 

[Apparent Amarant]

That quote is from VII. It directly proceeds "The Lifestream arc" when Cloud and Tifa are both back on the Highwind. They're in the briefing room and he begins explaining his past.

It seems to me then that Cloud should have gotten a wing at some point then.

 

[HighwindPilot]

It seems to me then that Cloud should have gotten a wing at some point then.

He did in AC didn't he? Or actually, I don't recall that being the case. Only in KH, which isn't canon, as far as I'm concerned. I know that in VII he didn't though because the concept probably didn't arise at the time. In Zack's case, they probably didn't want to go there, although I do recall them talking about "wings" a lot, such as his

Spoiler

death scene

.

 

[Apparent Amarant]

In Zack's case

Spoiler

I think he just died to early to get one.

If they were supposed to get them.
As far as I remember Cloud didn't get a wing in AC, but I could be wrong. I agree KH definitely doesn't count.


So to sum up my ideas. Zack was stronger at his

Spoiler

point of death

but in the following events Cloud became stronger over time. I believe their potentials were equal because they had the same things done to them. I also think Sephiroth was their equal in pure battle prowess, but it was mindset, attitude, and arrogance that hindered him and allowed Cloud to surpass him.

The one thing I don't understand though is how come Sephiroth has a bunch of extra special powers.... like not dying.... for good. I still can't think of why Cloud never got a wing, but maybe it was that he gripped to his humanity while Sephiroth let go of it?

 

[SOLDIERis1337]

Soldieris1337 you make some excellent points, but just because Genesis has "combat abilities that rank equal to Sephiroth" does not make him his equal in battle.

But that's exactly what it means. Sephiroth is physically stronger, but Genesis balances this out by being more skilled in magic. He even has the unique ability to draw magical power into his blade, something no other SOLDIER could do.

I believe Sephiroth would win the battle the way they were in Crisis Core and they illustrate this in an excellent FMV scene. Genesis's inability to equal or surpass Sephiroth is where much of his drive comes from as a SOLDIER. .

They were having a pretty pitched fight, only Angeal breaking them up is what stopped it. And Genesis is jealous of Sephiroth's fame, not his strength, as multiple sources straight from the games creators have confirmed that in overall ability they are equals.

I really hope they bring back Genesis. He could become stronger then he was(probably) and make an excellent villain. Sephiroth was experimented on earliest though so it only makes sense that he would stay a step ahead of Genesis

They're going to bring him back, have you scene the

Spoiler

secret ending of Dirge of Cerberus? Genesis regained his SOLDIER pride after fighting Zack, and sealed himself away in that cave to be ready for a future threat against the planet. We haven't been told what that is yet, but apparently something big is about to happen in the FF VII universe and Genesis feels the need to fight it.

As far as the wings are concerned, Zack and Cloud wouldn't meet the criteria for wings anyway. To have a wing in the compilation means you were given Jenova's cells or her genetic material while you were still a fetus, which is why they're found exclusively on the Angeal and Genesis, the results of project G, and Sephiroth, the result of project S.

 

[Tidus_Blitz]

I like Cloud dont get me wrong but he killed sephiroth with a cheap shot and is kind of a whiner throughout the game......So I guess im going to have to go with Zack even though we dont know much about him even with Crisis Core out but other than that i still like cloud but zack is definetly stronger

 

[Apparent Amarant]

But that's exactly what it means. Sephiroth is physically stronger, but Genesis balances this out by being more skilled in magic. He even has the unique ability to draw magical power into his blade, something no other SOLDIER could do.

They were having a pretty pitched fight, only Angeal breaking them up is what stopped it. And Genesis is jealous of Sephiroth's fame, not his strength, as multiple sources straight from the games creators have confirmed that in overall ability they are equals.




As far as the wings are concerned, Zack and Cloud wouldn't meet the criteria for wings anyway. To have a wing in the compilation means you were given Jenova's cells or her genetic material while you were still a fetus, which is why they're found exclusively on the Angeal and Genesis, the results of project G, and Sephiroth, the result of project S.

They aren't equals. They have equal combat skills and Sephiroth is stronger. That makes Sephiroth better. Nowhere does it say Genesis has better combat skills to make up Sephiroth's strength it only says their combat skills are equal so the deciding factor would be strength.

Even if they were equal, which they aren't, Genesis had already degenerated enough that he would be weaker by the end of Crisis Core.

 

[HighwindPilot]

As far as the wings are concerned, Zack and Cloud wouldn't meet the criteria for wings anyway. To have a wing in the compilation means you were given Jenova's cells or her genetic material while you were still a fetus, which is why they're found exclusively on the Angeal and Genesis, the results of project G, and Sephiroth, the result of project S.

They were both injected with Jenova/S(ephiroth) cells. Again, I don't know if CC made a crappy retcon of this (although I don't think it did), but Cloud specifically states in VII that all members of SOLDIER are both exposed to Mako and injected with the cells. He then says that he basically went through the same process under Hojo's later experiment. So that criteria is met. Like I said, they have the goods/resource, if nothing else.

Also, and I'm addressing this generally, not specifically at you...

But that's exactly what it means. Sephiroth is physically stronger, but Genesis balances this out by being more skilled in magic. He even has the unique ability to draw magical power into his blade, something no other SOLDIER could do.

If we look at things like this ^--and I think that's perfectly fair--then I am perfectly willing to argue that Cloud was physically greater than Zack in CC. I still believe that his failure to reach SOLDIER was based purely on psychological reasoning. We know that his psyche was utter crap, but his physical aspects proved to be something entirely different. That's not to take anything away from Zack however, whom I believe to be Cloud's superior in most other categories during CC.

 

[Apparent Amarant]

They were both injected with Jenova/S(ephiroth) cells. Again, I don't know if CC made a crappy retcon of this (although I don't think it did), but Cloud specifically states in VII that all members of SOLDIER are both exposed to Mako and injected with the cells. He then says that he basically went through the same process under Hojo's later experiment. So that criteria is met. Like I said, they have the goods/resource, if nothing else.





.

I think he was saying that the big Three were had the experiments done as young children or at least in Sephiroth's case in the womb whereas Cloud and Zack had them done upon joining Soldier, and some of it was done during the events of Crisis Core. The fact the experiments took place when they body had so much more development to be done would no doubt change the way they impacted the physical appearance of the body to a higher degree, and possibly overall potential too in Sephiroth's case but not in Genesis or Angeal's case as of yet because they never obtained S cells.



Furthermore Sephiroth is a straight up douche bag for denying his two best friends small samples that would save their lives and keep them from becoming monsters. I think this is one of the times in CC where he shows his first evil side.

 

[Cloud1355]

Well i think cloud is stronger he is able to nearly kill sep while not in soldier no mako,no jenova cells and zack died and then through out ff7 he gets way stronger and then kills sep then wel\ all get to ac he gets stronger so i think zack can;t do it cloud is just to strong it would be diffrent if zack would have been getting sstronger too but thats not the case

 

[Solid Link]

Cloud is an upgraded version of Zack. Zack was the strongest, but he can't beat Sephiroth. Sephiroth, the strongest being, can only be defeated by Cloud, which makes Cloud the strongest. Zack has the mental strength, but his physical strength cannot be matched by Cloud. I think that the Turks are more on Zack's Level.