Aerith or Tifa?

[Dragon Mage]

Yeah, especially, the way the threads been going lately. But when this; "willingly with no resistance" is said, it makes it seem like Aerith will just give up and be killed/raped/kidnaped. when she wouldn't. She does fight and escape, that's how she survived in Midgar.

It's just unlike Tifa, Aerith doesn't have the muscle to back her up.

I see why that'd appear damning, but I think it's really a matter of perception. To the poster and myself, it appears as though she barely gives any resistance at all in comparison to how Tifa would react. But then, I'm focusing more on Tifa; you're focusing more on Aerith. So it's safe to say that both sides can be rather blind to what the other side finds so appealing.

I thought Aeris survived in Midgar by abusing her absurdly high charisma score? (that's a D&D reference btw...)

Picture it. A thug comes up to Aerith:

"Gimme yo money."

Aerith looks at him, smiles, and waves her hand in front of his face. "This is not the person you want to take money from."

Thug gets this entranced look on his face and drones, "This is not the person I want to take money from."

"Go away and be a good citizen."

Thug nods and wanders off. Jedi mind tricks FTW!

Of course, if thug came up to Tifa, she'd either tell him to stop this silly nonsense and pull his socks up like a decent person (and he'd probably do it) or she'd break his hand and lecture him on the virtues of being a law-abiding citizen while marching him to the authorities.

Either outcome, ya gotta love it, right? :dave:


But, ahem, yeah. Back on topic.

 

[The Witch]

Aerith would look a bit weird to be rippling with muscles. Plus then it takes away from the whole "frail flowergirl who needs to be rescued" persona she's got going on. Which at the same time, I think works with her. Because she's not your typical Mary Sue who asks for protection because all the bad men will get her... Sure she asks Cloud to be her bodyguard, but at the cost of a date. While she's physically unable to protect herself, to me her personality is just so strong.

Lol, I agree.

Also, Dragon Mage, does Aerith relying on not being able to physically fight make her some pathetic women that will do nothing when facing danger?

Because, Aerith's pretty damn brave, running off after Sephiroth by herself was amazing.

 

[Dragon Mage]

Also, Dragon Mage, does Aerith relying on not being able to physically fight make her some pathetic women that will do nothing when facing danger?

Because, Aerith's pretty damn brave, running off after Sephiroth by herself was amazing.

No, that doesn't make her pathetic at all. Why would it? She isn't stupid. She plays to her strength, which in this case (teehee) would mean getting people that CAN take a lot of beating and give more back to gather around her and protect her! Clever girl...

Which is one way to go about defending yourself, to be sure. I just prefer Tifa's style better. Probably because I do exactly what she would. xD

And some might call running off as brave, others might call it foolhardy and unnecessary.

Let me try and explain it to you so that it's at least understandable. Spoiler tags for caution of lurking newbies. Mind you, take this all with a grain of salt, I first played FF7 several years ago.

Spoiler

My major dislike is that Aeris went off alone. Now we both agree that she is hardly able to defend herself physically, right? Her only strengths lie in magic, and mages in FF are pretty much glass cannons. Now keep in mind that I'm not arguing that she was brave to go, I'm not saying it wasn't a noble thing for her to do -- no contest there.

But... she effectively threw down her only sword and shield (the part of people she'd found who protected her, especially in Cloud's case as an unofficial 'bodyguard') and just ran straight into the maw of doom.


I just wish she had at least spun around and pulled out a switchblade or something and telling Sephiroth to eat shit and drop dead before she died. DEFIANCE of an unfair fate -- fighting to the very last to survive, despite the odds; all of that was neglected in her final moments. So, without any of that, it really appears as though she didn't lift a finger to save herself and just let it happen. To be quite honest, when I first saw that the first time I played through, I thought that was bullshit. It was dumb, it was unfair, she didn't even try. And though I can't speak for all people that prefer Tifa, that was one the thing about Aerith's character I didn't like -- that even to the last seconds, she did nothing to stop it, and in fact went willingly to certain death without even the materia you'd equipped on her.

It's inexpressibly infuriating when a character doesn't make a move to protect themselves, as futile as it may be. So, perhaps for people that don't prefer Aerith, the impact of her noble sacrifice and considerable bravery was shadowed by the the way she went there almost as if she wanted to die. And keep in mind, during the first playthrough, you don't know that her death wasn't totally meaningless -- but it sure seems like that for a while. So not only did a character appear to sacrifice herself for nothing, but she went straight into certain death completely defenseless by her own decision. Who knows? Maybe she could have lived if she'd gone with the rest of the group, or at least taken some materia along.

It's one thing to rush to certain death head on and armed to the teeth, ready to take out as many of the bastards as you can -- quite another to drop your weapons, spread your arms and let them run you through, for no reason at all. Even though you find out that her death wasn't meaningless later on, that first time experience sticks with you.

I hate the thought of just letting yourself die. I'd personally go out of this world the way I came in it -- screaming and covered in someone else's blood, LOL. But Aerith? She didn't even turn around.

*cough* So, maybe that makes it a little clear why I don't like that particular aspect of the character. It made her look like she gave up too easily. And I know you'll see it much differently, but I really can't see it any other way. :\ First impressions and all. So, maybe now you can understand why some of the intricacies in her decision made people think poorly of the character. I can appreciate the nobility of what she did perfectly -- but I prize strategy more. See where I'm coming from now, even though you don't agree?

 

[coffeecup]

@Dragon Mage

I'm going to have to disagree with your take on Aeris with regard to those events. Maybe I'm not remembering the stuff right, but...

Spoiler

First off, to characterize Aeris as going to the Forgotten City alone as haphazard and w/out any real sense of strategy...is wrong imo. You've got to remember that right before she left, Sephiroth just mindfucked Cloud to the nth degree, I mean she had to tell him while he was comatose. So I don't think she just ran in there without her "sword and shield" but rather did it out of respect and compassion for her compatriots. Sephiroth is like Superman, so her decision to go by herself was a precaution for the safety of her friends. Also, she's the only one that can summon Holy anyway, why bring them along? They'd just be additional Seph fodder.

As for her dying without a fight...it's a bit of a paradox to say that. If you think about it, you're saying that she died without a fight against Seph during her battle against him (via summoning Holy). It doesn't have all the flashy sword swinging and flying around like Cloud v. Seph, but it's still a fight nonetheless. And if you're referring to the actual point when she got backpwned by his 100ft. sword, I don't think she was aware that Seph was around. I mean Cloud was just mindfucked again before Seph came in and he didn't even notice Seph's ninja like descent. She just awoke from summoning Holy when...he falls from the sky and impales her with his 100ft. sword before his feet even touched the ground. If she knew he was coming, I'm sure she wouldn't have done a spread eagle for him...I'd hardly call it a voluntary sacrifice.

But don't worry, I like Tifa too. I reserve my original opinion on her being my Booty Call girl.

 

[Rydia]

About Aerith's sacrifice. What about this line from Bugenhagen

Bugenhagen
"The knowledge of the Ancients swirling around here is telling me one thing."
(Cloud looks at him)
Bugenhagen
"The planet's in a crisis..."
(He shakes his head.)



Bugenhagen
"A crisis beyond human power or endless time."
"It says, when the time comes, we must search for 'Holy'."
Cloud
"Holy?" Bugenhagen
"Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor."
"If a soul seeking Holy returns to the planet, it will appear."

Wouldn't that indicate that Aerith knew she was going to die and that she did infact sacrifice herself? Add to the fact that holy does still summon at the end of the game and that she summoned the life stream to hold meteor up from crashing into the planet while holy finished it off.

 

[Ryushikaze]

That's a bad translation- the actual line is something like 'A soul seeking Holy connects to the planet' no doom implied.

And again, the creators said they wanted to beat down the 'noble sacrifice' cliche. They even lampshade parodied it minutes earlier with Cait Sith's overly dramatic sacrifice and immediate replacement.

 

[Rydia]

You gotta reliable source for that statement? I can't take you seriously unless you provide me with one.

And holy still summoned.

 

[Bambi]

what is it about threads about these 2 that gets everyone so...heated?

I personally like them both. Though, Aerith is my favourite. I like her attitude, she's fun, carefree, selfless - stupid and impulsive as well. She didn't have to go off alone but she did and got done over, but her motives behind that were understandable, Cloud was a nutter and gave Seph the black materia. Tifa came across as a bit selfish, keeping what she knew to herself, just to keep him around, though, her motives were just as understandable. THough, showing no interest in him, til he said he was leaving for SOLDIER, is just classic wanting what you cant have, coz now hes leaving town, and she wants some soldier type to come help her if shes ever in a bind or other. None of that really sat well with me, tbh.

In battle, I wasnt really fussed about either of them. Can't say I'm one for magic using, so Aerith tended to take a back seat in battle, seeing as she was physically shite, and as for Tifa I wasn't all that fond of the slots they just took to long to use when you're set to active.

And if anyone nitpicks, im not backing nothing up with nothing, so fuck you, this is just how i think about them, and I cant be fucking arsed gettting into some petty argument about it

 

[Ultima Snake]

gotta be Tifa because one Aerith is Zacks girl plus Tifa is super hot

 

[The Witch]

About Aerith's sacrifice. What about this line from Bugenhagen

Bugenhagen
"The knowledge of the Ancients swirling around here is telling me one thing."
(Cloud looks at him)
Bugenhagen
"The planet's in a crisis..."
(He shakes his head.)



Bugenhagen
"A crisis beyond human power or endless time."
"It says, when the time comes, we must search for 'Holy'."
Cloud
"Holy?" Bugenhagen
"Holy... the ultimate White Magic. Magic that might stand against Meteor. Perhaps our last hope to save the planet from Meteor."
"If a soul seeking Holy returns to the planet, it will appear."

Wouldn't that indicate that Aerith knew she was going to die and that she did infact sacrifice herself? Add to the fact that holy does still summon at the end of the game and that she summoned the life stream to hold meteor up from crashing into the planet while holy finished it off.

Great point! That does indicate that she knew. Great job on finding that, man.

That's a bad translation- the actual line is something like 'A soul seeking Holy connects to the planet' no doom implied.

And again, the creators said they wanted to beat down the 'noble sacrifice' cliche. They even lampshade parodied it minutes earlier with Cait Sith's overly dramatic sacrifice and immediate replacement.

Hmm, fan translations or official translations?
So hard to pick which one is more reliable.

 

[Dragon Mage]

coffeecup, Rydia:

See, remember I said that this is ONE way of looking that that sequence of events. I really can't disagree with ya coffeecup, and you really can't disagree with me, because both are valid ways of understanding the scenario, even though they differ. As I said before, the bravery and nobility of the act was overshadowed by what I personally saw to be her being much too nonchalant of running straight into peril. :\ If you didn't see that way, well, of course that's expected -- readers/players have a wide range of reactions to the same scene, be it in a game or a book or whathaveyou. Different views are to be expected. But that doesn't mean one is more right than the other.

At this point, we're not even defending the characters, we're just picking nits over individual perceptions. O_O And that's a long debate to nowhere, trust me lol.

 

[Ayen]

Since it's being debated here I thought this piece was interesting:

"We knew even in the early concept stage that one character would have to die. But we only had three to choose from. I mean, Cloud's the main character, so you can't really kill him. And Barret... well, that's maybe too obvious. But we had to pick between Aerith and Barret. We debated this for a long time, but in the end decided to sacrifice Aerith . . . In the previous FF games, it became almost a signature theme for one character to sacrifice him or herself, and often it was a similar character type from game to game, kind of a brave, last-man-standing, Barret-type character. So everyone expected that. And I think that death should be something sudden and unexpected, and Aerith's death seemed more natural and realistic. Now, when I reflect on Final Fantasy VII, the fact that fans were so offended by her sudden death probably means that we were successful with her character. If fans had simply accepted her death, that would have meant she wasn't an effective character. "

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Aerith#Final_Fantasy_VII

And before somebody doubt a wiki source do note that even when people do edit in false information they're usually quickly edited and fixed with the accurate details.

Now with all that said, I can't really tell if this means they were trying to break away from both the typical "character sacrifice" and "Barrett type character dying" cliche or just the latter. Nonetheless it's clear Aerith's death was always meant to be sudden and unexpected from the very beginning.

 

[The Witch]

Since it's being debated here I thought this piece was interesting:

"We knew even in the early concept stage that one character would have to die. But we only had three to choose from. I mean, Cloud's the main character, so you can't really kill him. And Barret... well, that's maybe too obvious. But we had to pick between Aerith and Barret. We debated this for a long time, but in the end decided to sacrifice Aerith . . . In the previous FF games, it became almost a signature theme for one character to sacrifice him or herself, and often it was a similar character type from game to game, kind of a brave, last-man-standing, Barret-type character. So everyone expected that. And I think that death should be something sudden and unexpected, and Aerith's death seemed more natural and realistic. Now, when I reflect on Final Fantasy VII, the fact that fans were so offended by her sudden death probably means that we were successful with her character. If fans had simply accepted her death, that would have meant she wasn't an effective character. "

http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Aerith#Final_Fantasy_VII

And before somebody doubt a wiki source do note that even when people do edit in false information they're usually quickly edited and fixed with the accurate details.

Now with all that said, I can't really tell if this means they were trying to break away from both the typical "character sacrifice" and "Barrett type character dying" cliche or just the latter. Nonetheless it's clear Aerith's death was always meant to be sudden and unexpected from the very beginning.

That Kitase quote was just talking about the impact of a sudden death on the people left behind. Aerith might have know she had to die and decided to not tell any of her friends. It was only until learning of her cetra abilities at the Temple of the Ancients that I believe Aerith finally understood her fate.

In Midgar, she wasn't sure what a promised land was, let alone how to find one. And after Cosmo Canyon she learned a little more. But it was the Temple that told her *how* to find a promised land and *what* that would mean for her. Hence the quote from Maiden and the quote from Cloud.

She didn't always know she had to die, but at the temple... it dawned on her that she would have to die.

Her death was sudden and came without warning to Cloud, her friends, and to the players. There was no buildup prior to the death that would have led anyone to suspect that she was going to die.

As Kitase said, there was no dramatic preparations. He had to make sure it contained the element of a surprise because that's more realistic. To Cloud and everyone else, it was indeed like murder. They/we weren't prepared for Aerith's death.


However, does that mean Aerith herself didn't believe she was going to die? Not necessarily, and, IMO, MoTP seems to say she kind of knew it.

 

[LLCJOneTwelve]

Has too be Aerith for me. Loved her personality through-out, also has the most profound effect for the game. Beats Tifa, hands down.

 

[The Witch]

Has too be Aerith for me. Loved her personality through-out, also has the most profound effect for the game. Beats Tifa, hands down.

Agreed. The world would have literally died with Aerith. She's that kick ass.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Now with all that said, I can't really tell if this means they were trying to break away from both the typical "character sacrifice" and "Barrett type character dying" cliche or just the latter. Nonetheless it's clear Aerith's death was always meant to be sudden and unexpected from the very beginning.

It was unexpected to the viewers, it wasn't unexpected to Aerith, hence us not discovering that Aerith knew she was going to die until sometime later on the second disk of the game.

Cloud
"...Aerith. Aerith has already prayed for Holy."
"...After I gave the Black Materia to Sephiroth...... Aerith's
words came into my dreams..."
"She said, she was the only one who could stop Sephiroth......
And to do that, there was a secret here..."
"That was Holy...... That's why, she had the White Materia.
Aerith knew about here... and what she had to do."
"Aerith has left us great hope. But, it cost her her life... her
future..."
"I'm sorry... Aerith. I should have figured this out sooner."
"...You left us without saying a word...... It was all so sudden,
so I couldn't think..."
"That's why it took so long for me to find out... But, Aerith...
I understand now."
"Aerith... I'll do the rest."

 

[The Witch]

It was unexpected to the viewers, it wasn't unexpected to Aerith, hence us not discovering that Aerith knew she was going to die until sometime later on the second disk of the game.

Yes, exactly Tori! That's what I said earlier.

Aerith might have known she had to die and decided to not tell any of her friends. It was only until learning of her cetra abilities at the Temple that I believe Aerith finally understood her fate... which was death.

Before, she wasn't sure what a promised land was, let alone how to find one. It was the Temple that told her *how* to find a promised land and *what* that would mean for her. Hence the quote from Maiden and the quote from Cloud.

She didn't always know she had to die, but at the temple... it dawned on her that she would have to die.

Her death was sudden and came without warning to Cloud, her friends, and to the players. There was no buildup prior to the death that would have led anyone to suspect that she was going to die.

There was no dramatic preparations. He had to make sure it contained the element of a surprise because that's more realistic. To Cloud and everyone else, it was indeed like murder. They/we weren't prepared for Aerith's death.

However, Aerith did know she was going to die, while Cloud and Co. and the players did not.

 

[Saints&Storms]

Yes, exactly Tori! That's what I said earlier.

Aerith might have known she had to die and decided to not tell any of her friends. It was only until learning of her cetra abilities at the Temple that I believe Aerith finally understood her fate... which was death.

Its stated in the Maiden that Aerith always had the strong feeling of Death, I think that's where Aeriths denial of being an Ancient came in as a child, the more that she spoke to the Planet and her True Mother the stringer her ability became, so yeah going tot eh Temple may have strengthened it even more.

 

[Ryushikaze]

You gotta reliable source for that statement? I can't take you seriously unless you provide me with one.

And holy still summoned.

In the real world things are very different. You just need to look around you. Nobody wants to die that way. People die of disease and accident. Death comes suddenly and there is no notion of good or bad. It leaves, not a dramatic feeling but great emptiness. When you lose someone you loved very much you feel this big empty space and think, 'If I had known this was coming I would have done things differently.' These are the feelings I wanted to arouse in the players with Aerith's death relatively early in the game. Feelings of reality and not Hollywood.

As well, let me point out that Sephiroth's goal was to stop Holy. The only thing that could stop his plan was Holy. Sephiroth knew how the Black Materia et. all worked. So why the hell would Sephiroth knowingly aid in his own demise?
Further, consider the utter nonsense of a 'Superweapon defense shield' built alongside the superweapon, that requires a human sacrifice to use, when the superweapon doesn't. If Holy requires a sacrifice, both Sephiroth and the Ancients become morons.

And yes, Holy still summoned. But it didn't need Aerith's death to be summoned. She successfully sent her prayer for Holy, THEN she was killed.

· FFVII – The Forgotten Capital
She sent her prayer for Holy to the Planet, and immediately afterwards lost her life at the hands of Sephiroth.

 

[Gingerbread Lesbian]

Personally, I vote for Tifa. She's way more attractive than Aerith (tits aside), though including the tits she's just massively more attractive than Aerith. She looks in good shape too so she probably has a nice figure and a nice ass when she's under the duvet () I think she'd have more of a personality too, Aerith comes across as someone who would be quite clingy but would probably quite happily cheat on you. Tifa is as loyal as you get and she's a waitress or w/e so she's probably knocked back quite a few drinks in her time. Experience is always better than being a virgin.

I vote Tifa.