Do you believe in God?

[Warbsywoo]

You can't generalize and say everything in it is lies, SA.

In fact, if you take things historically, a lot of this stuff actually did happen. Tales like that of the Great Flood are being studied and are actually quite close to being validated --- if it hasn't already.

God was invented by religion years ago to stop the masses fearing death.

As to this, I agree with Erythritol. The Christian God was indeed invented by the religion (like what religion doesn't invent it's own god )
but you stated the wrong reason. That couldn't be farther from the truth.

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[The Phantarch]

You're using the word in a biological sense, not a theological one. You can be a father even without reproducing biologically, now can't you?
Christians such as myself call him the father because he's out there (supposedly I guess if you're a skeptic) watching over us much like a [good] father does. It isn't a matter of what His offspring were or how we came to be on earth, it's just plain belief is what it is.

We also call him He as a sign, or symbol, or mark, of His greatness. Nothing more.

Since when is male superior to female (BTW running further into this and you risk proving my point more)
He as a symbol of his greatness? The only great things that I can see are terrible. Chivalry is dead, people are starving, war is rampant, the atmosphere is nearly as thick as pea soup! In biblical days miracles were happening every other day but now none happen, thus I find faith nothing more than a virile fanaticism, a quest for assurance of a new life.
If you have any solid evidence to disprove what I'm saying then by all means bring it forth.

Also by saying that "it's just plain belief" you are reducing the little validity it has.

You can't generalize and say everything in it is lies, SA.

In fact, if you take things historically, a lot of this stuff actually did happen. Tales like that of the Great Flood are being studied and are actually quite close to being validated --- if it hasn't already.



As to this, I agree with Erythritol. The Christian God was indeed invented by the religion (like what religion doesn't invent it's own god )
but you stated the wrong reason. That couldn't be farther from the truth.

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True you can't generalise and say it's all lies but does Lazerus have 2 death certificates? Is there an account found outside the Bible that confirms that Jesus rose from the dead, or is there a place in the Qu'ran that says that the only way to ready an animal for eating is to kill it in one of if not THE cruelest way possible? Is there an account in it that says women have to dress much more modestly than men? Also how can God be omniscient and benevolent when there is so much suffering? Also the improbability of the distance walked by the people in those days in some of the most scorching hot places on Earth with little food and water, now come on, that is fictitious!

 

[Erythritol]

Since when is male superior to female (BTW running further into this and you risk proving my point more)
He as a symbol of his greatness? The only great things that I can see are terrible. Chivalry is dead, people are starving, war is rampant, the atmosphere is nearly as thick as pea soup! In biblical days miracles were happening every other day but now none happen, thus I find faith nothing more than a virile fanaticism, a quest for assurance of a new life.
If you have any solid evidence to disprove what I'm saying then by all means bring it forth.

Also by saying that "it's just plain belief" you are reducing the little validity it has.

True you can't generalise and say it's all lies but does Lazerus have 2 death certificates? Is there an account found outside the Bible that confirms that Jesus rose from the dead, or is there a place in the Qu'ran that says that the only way to ready an animal for eating is to kill it in one of if not THE cruelest way possible? Is there an account in it that says women have to dress much more modestly than men? Also how can God be omniscient and benevolent when there is so much suffering? Also the improbability of the distance walked by the people in those days in some of the most scorching hot places on Earth with little food and water, now come on, that is fictitious!

Oh boy, I can't believe I'm going to defend religion but....

When you say that God is a male, you're talking about God in the pure Christian sense of the word. Yes, in Christianity, it is the holy father. But in the Old Testament, it is specifically stated that God is neither male nor female. Thing is, when translating the Bible into English, a pronoun had to be chosen. The translators weren't going to call God "it". Obviously, that wouldn't do. Thus, they chose "he".

But I digress. You are simply talking about the Christian God. Yes, Christianity is a religion that has a long history of oppressing women. It is unfortunate. But Goddess worship predates Christianity. No one here said that God has to be male OR female. God is just God to many people.

Okay, I don't know how many times people have said this, but here it is again: the Bible is NOT meant to be taken literally. These miracles that were included in the Bible may or may not have occured. I'm not a historian. However, I do think (and this is just my personal opinion) that events similar to those included in the Bible were actual historical events, and the authors of the Bible took a literary license to embellish and add non-historical details. Were Sodom and Gomorah really destroyed by God because a bunch of people tried to rape his angels? ....Doubtful. There is some evidence that these cities did exist and were destroyed, and the authors of the Bible probably knew this. They incorporated real events into fable-like stories with some sort of moral lesson (that's simplifying it a bit, I admit). As for "solid evidence" to disprove what you are saying...you don't have any "solid evidence" yourself. You have the assumption that the Bible is supposed to be a historical textbook, which it is not. It is a collection of stories that were written from approximately the 12th century BC to the 2nd century BC.

As for wars, starving, etc: hello, welcome to the world. Those things are, sadly, nothing new. In fact, it's probably calmed down significantly since Biblical times.

As for "Is there an account found outside the Bible that confirms that Jesus rose from the dead"-- you do realize that a bunch of men didn't get together and say "hay guys, let's write a Bible, lol." The New Testament was written over the course of a few decades by Greek men who didn't necessarily come into contact with one another. Revelation was written by some hermit dude living on a Greek island. Why these individuals books were compiled together to form what we now know at the Bible while other books were left out, I haven't a clue. But there are several individual accounts; they are simply compiled in what is now called "the Bible."

Also, I'd just like to point out that in keeping with the idea of the Bible being a collection of "fables" with a type of "moral lesson", many of the ideas/events in the Bible borrow from earlier literary works/Pagan rituals. Example: the Noah's ark flood is borrowed from "The Epic of Gilgamesh" which actually predates the Bible.

Quite frankly, I think the Bible gets a lot of shit that it doesn't deserve. The Bible itself I think is great. The people who misinterpret it or warp it in their own personal crusade for an issue are bad.

 

[dimmufan]

God was invented by religion years ago to stop the masses fearing death.

I agree with you there. I have no eveidence of what I'm about to say. It is my opinion and others might agree or disagree.

Cultures need rulers. Somebody to make decisions for the people. Rulers also want to make sure that the people will agree with the decisions that are made. Some dude back in ancient times decided he wanted to be the leader of his people. So one morning he wakes up and tells everybody that he had a dream. In his dream some eternal entity told him to step up and lead his people through the bad times and the good. So everybody believes this and makes him King. Then he appoints people to do his Interpretations of what this entity tells him to do. Several laws are formed. Basically a religion is born. Religion is used to keep the masses in check. The worshipers that don't like this religion move out and form their own religions, and the process repeats itself. Now we have so many religions claiming that their God is THE God, and so many different laws and rules governing each religion. To me, religion is too nonsensical to hold any real ground on logic, reasoning, and science.
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[Warbsywoo]

To me, religion is too nonsensical to hold any real ground on logic, reasoning, and science.
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Of course it doesn't 'hold any real ground on logic, reasoning, and science'. That's not what religion's supposed to do. It doesn't HAVE to be logical -- well except for some religions out there. >.>
But it's the same as believing superstitions and all that other stuff out there. People need guidance --- that's what I believe the reason behind the creation of religion is, not because someone woke up one day and just decided to do this.

It takes time to do it and spread this around.

Since when is male superior to female (BTW running further into this and you risk proving my point more)
He as a symbol of his greatness? The only great things that I can see are terrible. Chivalry is dead, people are starving, war is rampant, the atmosphere is nearly as thick as pea soup! In biblical days miracles were happening every other day but now none happen, thus I find faith nothing more than a virile fanaticism, a quest for assurance of a new life.

Since when did I say that males are superior to females? That's not what I said so therefore that's an invalid statement.

And yeah, it doesn't need religion to 'cause all those things you just mentioned.
Heck, even if it does, most of the people who fight it are ungodly anyway in the Christian sense. Historically, the Crusaders were a bunch of treasure seeking kings and nobles (who ran the show to near totality -- not the church, who had little sway over the affairs of kings and stuff), and only a few actual religious fanatics.

Also: remember that people remember all the bad things that happen and less of the good. If you take the Bible and read it in a week or so, you'll find that you'll remember more of the terrible things that happened. There are many good things that have happened: even the Great Flood -- the evil was washed from the world and everything was restored anew.

Also: The Bible doesn't say that miracles happen every other day. That's just a notion that most outsiders to the religion seem to adopt.

If you have any solid evidence to disprove what I'm saying then by all means bring it forth.

I can ask the same of you. You can't prove that God is non-existent either. All both sides really have are opinions and beliefs and in the end, we might actually all be wrong in the end.

Also by saying that "it's just plain belief" you are reducing the little validity it has.

And it's helping the theory that God doesn't exist how? There's little vaildity to the theory that doesn't exist either. So...both sides are still on an equal plane in that they can neither prove nor disprove the other's theory.

True you can't generalise and say it's all lies but does Lazerus have 2 death certificates? Is there an account found outside the Bible that confirms that Jesus rose from the dead, or is there a place in the Qu'ran that says that the only way to ready an animal for eating is to kill it in one of if not THE cruelest way possible?

No. Again, this isn't to be taken quite literally. For all I know it could've been a mere symbol of rising faith.

Again, the same thing could be asked of everything. Is there another account outside the Koran that tells of Muhammad's ascension? Things like that are impossible to prove or disprove.

And which method of killing animals are you talking about? It must've been custom back then since people were doing it.

Is there an account in it that says women have to dress much more modestly than men?

It doesn't have to be a direct account. These things could be suggested indirectly through description, but not said out so bluntly.

Also how can God be omniscient and benevolent when there is so much suffering?

Consider how hard it was back in the day when all you had was your house and home and not everyone would listen to you. Take into account all the dangers that people back then faced. Walking dozens of miles a day through harsh conditions like desert and snow with as little protection as possible from the elements, you could say that suffering today....isn't quite as bad as before.



Suffering will always be present as a means of 'testing' mankind --- that is, if you're familiar with the Bible.

Also the improbability of the distance walked by the people in those days in some of the most scorching hot places on Earth with little food and water, now come on, that is fictitious!

It's not improbable. They were used to the conditions. They also had the luxury of having the rivers for water sources. Besides, it took them years to traverse those paths from Egypt to the 'Promised Land', as is related in the Book of Exodus.

It's possible to survive without much nourishment if you have faith, which was obviously displayed by the people there.

 

[Howl]

God vs. Science


Do I believe that something is there...?
I believe that science defines our boundaries. Science and God are often compared to one another in two entirely different spectrums, but...in my eyes, they're both very...VERY similar. I'm not talking about God on a philosophical level; rather in a definitive manner. The definition of "God" is that of a "supreme being".
I do not consider God to be a "being"; humans are beings of this world. And even from a religious standpoint, God is not of this world; but he is of the next world. In this sense...I think of God's conception not as a "being", but rather as a "presence" in our world. And just as God is a presence in our universe, so are the physical laws of science.
So if you are a firm believer in the existence of god, then I as a firm believer in the inevitable presence of physics, share the same belief as you. We're just looking at the matter from two vastly different view points.

 

[The Phantarch]

Jeremiah first I would like to point out that what I said was not invalid.
You said "He as a symbol of his greatness" which implies male superiority.

So you want proof that there is no God, I've already mentioned the mass death and suffering in the world which is contradictory to the idea of God being benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient. That is more than what you can dismiss as a test... If a test it is, it is one of sadism!


Okay so Goddess worship predates the worship of Gods but how many situations do you find withing the last few centuries of female leadership. In the times of the ancient Greeks it was Zeus, Romans... Jupiter as two major examples not to mention that most religions today are androcentric as well this includes Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

Also how can it be said that the distance walked by those people is not improbable. In one scenario people walked for days in the wilderness and there's no mention of rations until the later part of the meaningless trek.

Maybe I was exaggerating by saying every other day but honestly... bringing corpses back to life, stopping tides, walking on water, allowing the deaf to hear and the blind to see, you can see where I'm coming from.

 

[Sephirothalpha]

So, uh, anything to back that up, or are you just making sweeping generalizations because it's the cool thing now to trash religion?

No one is quite sure who wrote the Old Testament. It has various authors. And if you view it just as a literary work, parts of it are actually written quite beautifully.

"Let him kiss me with the kisses of his mouth: for thy love is better than wine."

"Behold, thou art fair, my love; behold, thou art fair; thou hast doves' eyes.
Behold, thou art fair, my beloved, yea, pleasant: also our bed is green.
The beams of our house are cedar, and our rafters of fir."

Poetry? No, it's from the Bible! Yeah, I'm sure some ancient goverment was totally bent on writing that sort of thing.

Yes its my personal view but humans are not dumb, the people who wrote this were probably great writers and poets, possibly a of a secret organisation as in the Da-Vinci Code. I'm just being realistic, an entity that is all powerful, yeah right.

 

[Warbsywoo]

Jeremiah first I would like to point out that what I said was not invalid.
You said "He as a symbol of his greatness" which implies male superiority.

Only if you take it to mean it that way. That was not my intent.
Besides, being great doesn't necessarily imply that one is superior. It just means that he's great, he's respected. And that's the meaning I wanted to impart to the word.

So you want proof that there is no God, I've already mentioned the mass death and suffering in the world which is contradictory to the idea of God being benevolent, omnipotent and omniscient. That is more than what you can dismiss as a test... If a test it is, it is one of sadism!

God doesn't turn a blind eye to everything.
Just because he lets on wars and continues poverty doesn't mean he doesn't care for mankind in general. It's not the idea that by being benevolent he stops every single war imaginable but the idea that he actually cares.

Religious argument: If he didn't care for humankind, wars and all other disasters will be SO much worse than it is. We might not even be here.
That's benevolence.

Okay so Goddess worship predates the worship of Gods but how many situations do you find within the last few centuries of female leadership. In the times of the ancient Greeks it was Zeus, Romans... Jupiter as two major examples not to mention that most religions today are androcentric as well this includes Christianity, Judaism and Islam.

It wasn't only male gods that were in a leadership role.
It was tradition back then and it was widely recognized as the proper thing to do to have male leaders back in the day. Of course, that isn't so today. So...yeah.

Also how can it be said that the distance walked by those people is not improbable. In one scenario people walked for days in the wilderness and there's no mention of rations until the later part of the meaningless trek.

It was supposed to be implied. If you take the Bible literally it's not going to make sense. It wasn't mentioned that there was food along because it was an uneccessary detail -- because...it would be stupid for people back then not to bring rations along.

Maybe I was exaggerating by saying every other day but honestly... bringing corpses back to life, stopping tides, walking on water, allowing the deaf to hear and the blind to see, you can see where I'm coming from.

Yeah. Not supposed to be taken literally. Again, we can only speculate and there's no way of proving neither theory right or wrong.

 

[Darkstar]

Okay, I am a Christian, an evolutionist-scientific Christian, meaning that i believe in both God, the evolutionary theory and science. I believe God made us evolve from apes. But, I will only believe in the big bang if He made it so. With the big bang, something must have triggered it, it is suspected it was an atom, but, how did that atom get there? God put it there, it probably is the only logical explanation.

 

[The Phantarch]

Science always has the base that something can't come from nothing so where did God come from?

Also as regards to the not being able to take the bible literally, well I don't I hold it in the same category as the Lord of the Rings, in other words a great work of fiction.

I need proof that something exists. If no proof exists then how can it be manifest?

 

[Warbsywoo]

God was there in the beginning. That's what we believe. There's nothing more to it. It's not up to us (at least we believe) to decide or find out how God was created.

That's a simple question of belief.
Because I believe in God, therefore he exists. That's the mindset of all Christians and maybe other religious groups as well. To us, there doesn't have to have concrete proof that He is there; just the notion that He actually is there shared through common belief will suffice.

There are some things that can be explained and others that don't. If we stick to believing that things exist solely on the basis that we have proof that it exists, then we'd have a really lonely world. Lots of things unproven out there that are parts of our daily lives.

 

[The Phantarch]

God was there in the beginning. That's what we believe. There's nothing more to it. It's not up to us (at least we believe) to decide or find out how God was created.

That's a simple question of belief.
Because I believe in God, therefore he exists. That's the mindset of all Christians and maybe other religious groups as well. To us, there doesn't have to have concrete proof that He is there; just the notion that He actually is there shared through common belief will suffice.

There are some things that can be explained and others that don't. If we stick to believing that things exist solely on the basis that we have proof that it exists, then we'd have a really lonely world. Lots of things unproven out there that are parts of our daily lives.

Such as?

 

[Davey Gaga]

To be fair, though, the entire point in religion is "faith," and, essentially, having it xD If you need proof to say that God exists then you have no faith, ergo, you're not very ... religious, so to speak.

 

[Erythritol]

To be fair, though, the entire point in religion is "faith," and, essentially, having it xD If you need proof to say that God exists then you have no faith, ergo, you're not very ... religious, so to speak.

Exactly. I was basically trying to say that at some point, but I didn't word it as well. Asking for "proof" of God is basically defeating the entire purpose of being religious. If there were undeniable proof of God's existance....I'm not sure what that would do to religions. Especially if it were specific proof that proved one religion correct and another wrong.

...That would actually be a terrifying situation. I don't see any good coming of it.

 

[Warbsywoo]

Such as?

Exactly. I was basically trying to say that at some point, but I didn't word it as well. Asking for "proof" of God is basically defeating the entire purpose of being religious. If there were undeniable proof of God's existance....I'm not sure what that would do to religions. Especially if it were specific proof that proved one religion correct and another wrong.

...That would actually be a terrifying situation. I don't see any good coming of it.

That pretty much answers it.

Things like The Big Bang Theory that have gained credence over the years. Evolution is also an example. Apply the same logic to all living things and you ask the same question: 'Who created the 'first' ever animal?'

 

[The Phantarch]

Sorry to say it but that answer is hollow. If there was absolute proof it would help people to a great extent, contradictory to what you just said and I don't really care how long you try to spend, going 'round the houses as it were to try and explain faith. I was brought up religious (as a Jehovah's witness to be precise) but looking into it, beyond the questionable teachings of the Bible there is little valid proof of the existence of God.

In the Bible it also says that God has given Satan dominion over the earth and Satan was filled with anger, knowing his time was short. Now call me pedantic but this is the longest 'short period' ever.

 

[Warbsywoo]

What's the point of explaining faith if we all know what we're talking about when we say the word? I thought the issue was how faith and secularism contribute to how we view God (or the lack of one).
As for the demand for proof of God, I thought we went over that part already. xD
We can question the Bible all we want but we won't get any farther into than we already have -- which is not much.

And contradictory how? We can't go on with this as I don't know which part you're saying that's contradictory.

 

[Erythritol]

Sorry to say it but that answer is hollow. If there was absolute proof it would help people to a great extent, contradictory to what you just said and I don't really care how long you try to spend, going 'round the houses as it were to try and explain faith. I was brought up religious (as a Jehovah's witness to be precise) but looking into it, beyond the questionable teachings of the Bible there is little valid proof of the existence of God.

In the Bible it also says that God has given Satan dominion over the earth and Satan was filled with anger, knowing his time was short. Now call me pedantic but this is the longest 'short period' ever.

Okay, I don't think you understand the point of religion. It is about faith. Not proof; FAITH. If there were specific proof of God, it would destroy the doctrines of many religions. The whole point to religions is that you believe in God despite the "lack of evidence." If there were "absolute proof," it would help people who didn't believe to begin with. I doubt it would have a major impact on truly devout people.

...I think I've said this, like, fifteen million times now, but the Bible is not God's diary. It is a collection of scriptures, written by humans, intended to guide people. I think well-informed Christians and Jews know of the Bible's origins. They understand that it is not meant to be taken as ABSOLUTE AND CONCRETE proof that God exists, nor is it to be taken literally. As for the Satan thing, you do realize that in the Old Testament, Satan is one of God's consorts, right? He isn't the devil or Lucifer. As we can see in the Book of Job, Satan is certainly an asshole, but he isn't the "Satan" we know him as today.

I don't say this to be belligerent, but because you crave proof of God's existance so much, I don't think you COULD be religious. You sort of miss the entire point of being religious. No religion is about researching whether God exists or not and listing rational reasons as to why He/She/Whatever must exist. Being religious/believing in God is something deeply spiritual. It is not about reason or about rational argument; it is about faith.

 

[TransFormers]

I believe in Jesus and God ( which are two different people, but ill make a topic on trinty so please dont agrue with me on this thread thank you) and as Erythritol said it does take faith, but if you read the bible... like in revelation.. what it says is coming true.. Now does this mean that Jesus is coming for the final time to wipe the world of its sins.. Who know.. or is this telling us to prepare our selfs for his final coming?? but Erythrito the only thing i would tell you is that when you tell a person it takes " Faith " to believe in God and Jesus that is the easiest way to push away someone from the truth which is Jesus Christ. My advice to non-belivers is to read the bible or join a youth group to learn about christnaity. Because when non belivers hear about the bible and some of the storys about Noah or Moses they think they are made up stories.. beleive me i was the same way. Im not bashing non-belivers at all. Im not going to judge you now or ever. I don't have the right to, only god can do that... Now let me leave you with a qoute I would rather live my life as if there is a God and die to find out there isn't, than live my life as if there isn't and die to find out there is.
Albert Camus