The Downfall of Final Fantasy.

[Guernsey]

Reading all this Final Fantasy "sucks" stuff, it really has me wondering something, is it Final Fantasy that "sucks" or is it the fact that Rpg's in general are "sucking" I mean games are becoming more "action" and less "story" oriented I believe Look at the top selling games for the three systems so far...

PS3 Top selling games are Grand Turismo 5, Call of duty MW2, Uncharted 2, and Call of duty Black ops.

Xbox 360 top selling games are Halo 3, Call of duty MW2 then Both Gears of Wars

Wii top selling games are Wii Sports, Wii play, Wii Mario Kart.

Now I'm not saying RPG's arn't selling, I'm saying that games that are selling are the "action pack" games, or the "interactive" games as the wii is concern, and all rpg companies are trying to meet the demand for this more action generation which I believe FFXIII was doing, it is a lot more action pack from past FF games, less thinking more action seems to be what most games are like now days.

So not to say that Final Fantasy is doing the right thing, I'm saying there looking at the generation of gamers that are really buying games now.

Sadly, this is ort of ture but that doesn't some games any less bad. Bioshock is one of the very few action games with an awesome story that can only be done on a video game. FFXIII tried to do the same thine but it ended up being porrly receivied by fans although non fans enjoy the game despite its cliches.

Don't forget two other top selling games for the 360, Fable and Mass Effect. Which can pretty much be filed under Action/RPG. They have great success. But I see where you're going. FF games are trying to target a wider audience which I think is distracting the games from its former glory. This can make a product appealing to more people but leaves something to be desired from the more faithful audience.

Dare I make a comparison to the X-Men movies. It would be great to have a comic book movie dedicated to the original story 100% but in order to make money and target every audience, you really can't. That's where you get the mess of the X-Men movies. Changed stories, different character backgrounds, if you've seen them you know what I mean. It's the same with Final Fantasy. It targets a wider audience but the product isn't that great and is a step down in the eyes of old school gamers like myself.

Hope that makes sense.

That is what happneed sadly with our own FF7 compliation. SE ended making all sorts of spinoffs that ended up missing what the orignal game good in the first place. In a way, it is good that they do do it with FFVI or any other Final Fantasy other than FFIV. True sequels were never a staple of the series and I don't like how they are handling it.

I always saw Final Fantasy games as story-based drama, albeit one in which you're a willing passenger. Some will look at the gameplay and the mechanics and say that some of the next-gen (starting at VII) Final Fantasies pushed the boundaries of gaming ahead of their time. Don't get me wrong, they did do that. But what Final Fantasy did first and did best was the plot. They managed to move the gameplay along at a good rate of knots and devise interesting means and methods of developing your character in-game, without really developing them at all. The interesting part of a Final Fantasy game is what I call the revelation. The point at which it all comes out. Where all that sweat and toil you've put into the controller is made worthwhile by 'the prestige', the moment at which you understand why you've put your characters through the ringer. The good thing about some FFs is that they have the bluff and double bluff. But by and large you start out with small-time characters caught up in big-time, whirlwind events. Slowly, things unfold, and finding out key plot facts is much more interesting than beating that big boss.

Add to that the non-linear elements like sidequests, some of which add backgrounds to your character's lives, as well as the opportunity to wander the world and increase your strength and abilities. There was so much depth to the first Final Fantasy games I played. Wandering into that FF world for the first time, getting on to the big, World Map screen, was like being liberated from the kinds of games I had ever played before. Apart from that there was only one other ingredient to elevate Final Fantasy above the best of the best. The music. Music was able to make some of these games. There's a good seventy to eighty tunes caught up across most FFs, and almost all of them will reverberate around your head when you're out and about on your 'normal business'. It's a kind of hook, subliminal messaging almost, that drags you back into the game. Every time I decide to go back and replay a Final Fantasy is when one of the tunes suddenly switches on in my brain, and I'm like "what a game." Nowadays, I don't feel as if the FFs have all these ingredients. There's usually something missing.

Maybe they've gone a bit linear. Maybe they're too much of a good thing. Games have to change and evolve and do the old things in better ways if they're to continue to develop.

I couldn't agree more. I think gonna rep you.!

 

[CHIP]

Square Enix have gone beyond a joke, they are deliberately labelling shit and sending it out, knowing that the label Final Fantasy will instantly make it a commercial success.

I agree, to a certain extent. FF has undergone the same cynical merchandising that ruined Star Wars. There are so many odious spin-offs out there like Dirge of Cerberus. Thankfully, I didn't buy it, because I heard it was pants. I wouldn't mind the rubbish spin-offs so much if they actually kept the standard of the main Final Fantasy games high instead of letting them becoming thimble-deep gaming experiences where depth is sacrificed for visuals. I remember reading a review in PSM3 magazine where they said that one member of the development team of FFXIII spent a whole week making a rock look as visually impressive as he could. A rock! One whole week rendering a rock! Who does that? Once, FF was astonishing. It was the zenith of RPGs in both looks and gameplay. Now it is still beautiful but in all other ways it has become overfamiliar, underwhelming, via the cunning strategy of concentrating more and more on visuals and neglecting the gameplay, the story, depth, characters and basically everything that made the PS-one games such a pleasure to play. Why are they doing this? Obviously they think it will sell more copies. Quite how, I'm unsure. I'm trying to figure out what demographic Square are now aiming at? Judging from FFXIII, their new target-audience must be kids with very short attention spans.

 

[Castella]

The only thing I was disapointed in was FFVI. Other than that, the games by far are good. I have noticed that Square Enix is getting lazy with some of the FF characters and lacking on some stories but they're still good by far and over the past 10 years of playing nonestop FF games, I've never been disapointed with one yet to where I would take it back to the store.(except VI).

 

[Gingerbread Lesbian]

Saying that the series is dead is not giving Square Enix feedback though.

If you want to give them feedback, the first thing you have to do is explain what is it about said games that you don't like. How can they improve something if the only feedback they get is "This game sucks"?

My problem is with the people who say that the series is dead like that is fact, which it is not. You're entitled to that opinion, but when someone tries to defend the series, you have to back up your opinion with legitimate reasons.

I agree with Free_Lancer. If you complain just to complain without giving any good feedback (and saying stuff like "the game sucked" or "the characters sucked" or "the story sucked" isn't good feedback...WHY did they suck) your only options are to either quit playing or suck it up.

Like I said, unless you specify what you think the problem is, they can't take steps to improve it. Thankfully, there are people out there that do that, and they tend to be the people who don't shout from the rooftops how much the game sucks any chance they get.

Square-Enix had a group of people test Final Fantasy XIII and to give feedback but they included very little changes because of the feedback if any, and even admitted this. If Square-Enix fail to change things when feedback is handed to them on a plate they deserve every bit of criticism they get.

Also, Square-Enix can't afford to try things new every time they release a game. If you're releasing a game for your main IP every 4/5 years you have to get it spot on and fans know this. This isn't COD or FIFA or a game that is released pretty much yearly where if you make a few mistakes you can improve on that next year. If Square-Enix want to start going down the trial and error route they have to start releasing games every 2 years or less.

 

[Priestess-Mars]

I actually agree with you. I love Final Fantasy and all to death, but Square Enix hasn't been doing very well for the past few years with their games. It's like they don't put much thought into what their games are going to be composed of anymore. The second it has a label "Final Fantasy __" they know they're going to get money instantly. They still haven't left FFVII in peace; they keep making things for fan service because they will end up getting more cash. Sadly, that's how it's going to work. Whatever makes money is what is going to be used frequently.

 

[ExDeath]

The Final Fantasy series died with Squaresoft, period. It started to show cracks during Final Fantasy X, but went totally off the deep end following that.

I can only give SE credit for 3 things, none of which are original ideas of theirs:

FF7 Crisis Core
Dissidia
Dissidia Duodecim

All of the basics that made the Final Fantasy series great RPG's have been erased over the last several titles they have pumped out. Games void of character development, epic story lines, fun battle systems and open worlds for exploration have been removed in the sake of creating a game with great graphics.

The TRUE Final Fantasy series, I believe, will never return as it has been gone for years, but the classics will always remain. At least there is Dissidia Duodecim, this is a fantastic game, but not really a FF game. RIP Final Fantasy.

 

[TifaL]

Final Fantasy was made not purely for money, and for whoever thinks that, is nothing more than a r-e-t-a-r-d.
If games do not progress, as the real world, then nobody would play games anymore. The new style incorporated into each new Final Fantasy has its own reasons, and for one or a few people to dislike it does not mean that it was a failure.

 

[Tom Badguy]

The new style incorporated into each new Final Fantasy has its own reasons, and for one or a few people to dislike it does not mean that it was a failure.

I agree that Final Fantasy games are not 100% made for money. I mean, look at the Dissidia games; totally made for fans. But I think certain parts of FF can't be helped but be made only for cash. You can take anything, a movie, a game, even a lunch box, whether it be good or bad, and just slap Final Fantasy on it and it will sell(for the most part). Final Fantasy, the Spirits Within, is a good example. Total bust.

If games do not progress, as the real world, then nobody would play games anymore.

Not true. Example: FFXIV. The newest FF in the number based series. This game is sinking. It has not been out that long and the fan reactions have not been very supporting. I don't play MMORPGs so I wouldn't know personally, but I went to my local Gamestop today and already saw it in the bargain bin for $20. That was fast.

The new style incorporated into each new Final Fantasy has its own reasons, and for one or a few people to dislike it does not mean that it was a failure.

I wouldn't say Final Fantasy is a failure but it is failing. And even judging based on this thread, I'd say it's more than a few people who are disliking the direction it is going.

 

[OzDok]

I agree that Final Fantasy games are not 100% made for money. I mean, look at the Dissidia games; totally made for fans. But I think certain parts of FF can't be helped but be made only for cash. You can take anything, a movie, a game, even a lunch box, whether it be good or bad, and just slap Final Fantasy on it and it will sell(for the most part). Final Fantasy, the Spirits Within, is a good example. Total bust.



Not true. Example: FFXIV. The newest FF in the number based series. This game is sinking. It has not been out that long and the fan reactions have not been very supporting. I don't play MMORPGs so I wouldn't know personally, but I went to my local Gamestop today and already saw it in the bargain bin for $20. That was fast.



I wouldn't say Final Fantasy is a failure but it is failing. And even judging based on this thread, I'd say it's more than a few people who are disliking the direction it is going.

Final Fantasy: Spirits Within isn't really a good example, because it was mostly Square overspending horrifically that caused it to be a finacial failure.

And yes, Final Fantasy hasn't failed so far. It is slowly being pushed aside by competitors. The problem that Square has is that they take this to mean that they have to be MORE innovative and new and flashy to keep competitors from becoming more popular, rather than reviewing the roots of their success and building from there.

Another thing that I've found to be slightly annoying is the fact that characters are completely un-nameable now. I didn't even notice that until I started thinking about it. FFIX was the last one where you could completely name your team. You could name Tidus in FFX, but only him. I understand that it's because FF now has voice, but it would be nice to have that feature back.

 

[NickFergy]

From X onwards, i would say that the games have lost their "Final Fantasy-ness" and are more realistic (obviously it isn't real to have monsters and magic, but you get my meaning, with like modernising and bazookas etc), but i still like the games. XIII is far from traditional Final Fantasy, but I still love it.

So i assume you mean that you don't hate Final Fantasy now, just that you wish SE would go back to what they did with the pre-FFX games?

Coz i definitely wish they would. VII, VIII, and IX were my favourites because they had that "fantasy" feel, but now that seems to be missing.

 

[Guernsey]

The 'fantasy' part of the final fantasy games had pretty much been lost on the new games. I just wish they just go back to making stories just like they used to, I don't care for the new graphics but it could compliment the game. I just wish that they took a deep breath and look at what made the previous games so impressive in the first place. I don't care for cool and shiny Crysis esque graphcis inf the story is crap.

 

[polydorr]

Hope this isn't a thread necro, but I thought the topic was interesting.


One of the main problems of the entire Square story is geographic division.

The largest market for these games is the West. But the creators are from the East.

The thought patterns, the language - as much as we try to homogenize, sometimes it just doesn't work. In video games this is a foundational problem - not all games appeal to every crowd.


Another issue...

Every game developer in existence is trying to make the next Halo or Call of Duty (or in some cases, the next Angry Birds). With the amount of resources that have to go into every game due to performance issues and graphics (probably 50% or more of the budget), these games have to appeal to the shoot first, think later crowd. Honestly, as much as I dislike FFXIII I'm impressed with how story-centric it is. I fear it will be even less in the next single-player installment.

With multiplayer games being the norm now, it's probably inconceivable that SE wouldn't try to get in on the market with one of the biggest names. Sure, they want to make money, but FFXI isn't ALL bad; I know a lot of people who like it, and still play. Why? Because you can't accomplish anything in the game without grouping with people, and it's in the Final Fantasy setting. Imagine a game where you have Cloud, Balthier, and Irvine Kinneas in the same group, only they are all *real* people behind the avatars. It sounds like a pipe dream, but that's the experience people are pursuing on the MMO front. I don't blame SE for trying.

And now they have Mass Effect to compete with on the single-player front. I don't see it getting any better, really. Not they couldn't do it - they definitely could pull off something amazing with all the talent they have assembled - but it takes leadership.


Which leads me to my last point. One reality that is incontrovertible: Sakaguchi is gone. The man that not only was the producer for the main Final Fantasy blockbusters that everyone knows and loves but the guy who actually penned the original concepts for them too. It's mind blowing to think they all came from one guy. And he's gone as of FFX.

Square Enix may have the series on the decline. Of course, people thought Apple was on the way out and they came up with the iPod. So it's probably too early to abandon all hope.

And, lest we forget, Final Fantasy fans probably have the greatest compendium of back titles to keep them occupied than any other video game series, ever. So if I need to cocoon up with my PSOne and play Triple Triad 'til my eyes bleed, maybe I will.

One concept that should be up for discussion: the sale of Final Fantasy rights to Bethesda. I'm pretty sure if they ever made Final Fantasy VII into an Oblivion-style (with decent voice acting and character development, I'm talking open-world sandbox freedom here) game I might explode. In a good way.

 

[Tom Badguy]

Which leads me to my last point. One reality that is incontrovertible: Sakaguchi is gone. The man that not only was the producer for the main Final Fantasy blockbusters that everyone knows and loves but the guy who actually penned the original concepts for them too. It's mind blowing to think they all came from one guy. And he's gone as of FFX.

Yes, Sakaguchi's absence has shown the major difference in the franchise. Him not being there has proved that great franchises are only as good as the idea makers and developers behind it. Sakaguchi must be laughing his ass of right now.

One concept that should be up for discussion: the sale of Final Fantasy rights to Bethesda. I'm pretty sure if they ever made Final Fantasy VII into an Oblivion-style (with decent voice acting and character development, I'm talking open-world sandbox freedom here) game I might explode. In a good way.

Not to sure about this but the idea would make me react the same. Though I'm not sure if this is what would help the franchise.

 

[OzDok]

In reference to many people talking about a Bethesda-produced Final Fantasy, no.

The style of both companies is extremely different. Bethesda would never be able to produce a turn-based RPG that is focused on story, just as Squenix would never be able to produce a completely open-end world where you can do just what the hell you feel like.

It's telling to me that Squenix are producing Dungeon Siege 3. While Final Fantasy is still their main series, they have reached the point in their company evolution where people will be wanting them to produce their games. Final Fantasy is very soon going to dwindle to a side-profit to Squenix, especially considering that no-one remains there that has worked on the original games. No-one there has an emotional attachment to the company.

 

[DancingMad]

I agree completely with the OP.

Final Fantasy's glory days were up 'til IX (possibly X as well). Not really sure what happened after that. It's actually depressing to see something that started out so wonderful and absolutely magical, turn into nothing but pretty graphics.

I'm going to ignore the recent releases (which have disappointed me so tremendously), and instead play the classics and remember Final Fantasy for the brilliant series it once was.

 

[Guernsey]

I cannot imagine a Final Fantasy produced by any other company but Square, the series had the right amount humor, magic, music and stories that I rarely see in most RPGs. Can you imagine a Bioware Final Fantasy? It would be too different as well as a severe departure of what made the seires a success in the first place.

 

[Rapture]

Sadly, I really have to agree that Final Fantasy as a franchise has been snowballing in quality...especially with Final Fantasy XIII.

I've never played X-2 or XII...but I heard those weren't that great either.

I don't mind a spin-off of an original game that was good, like VII for example...but when they go adding 5 spin-offs to a game really they are beating used material to a pulp. ...and it seems like SE is becoming a heavier and heavier abuser of this.

I've been a fan of the series since IV and that was an amazing game imo. The graphics weren't that great on a SNES but the plot was awesome and the characters had substance. If only their games could be like this now. Instead we get visually stunning graphics, characters that are about as deep as the paper they were originally written on, and games that take you directly from point A to point B. Whatever happened to the towns, maps, and an original and engrossing plot(...and I'm obviously referencing XIII here)?

...and I'm still irritated with the presence of XIII-2. Not only am I weary of the fact that it was pushed out in a matter of about a year or two...I can only imagine how similar its going to be to XIII because of the short production time. As well as the fact that there is such a demand for Versus and Square side-stepping it's release for XIII-2.

However, it is what it is. Based on what I've read here I'm not the only one who agrees that the quality of their games is hinging on the not-so-great. If they keep it up they will get bought out or be put out of business...because there are many competitors out there who would be more than willing to take their place and eliminate the competition.

 

[OzDok]

Sadly, I really have to agree that Final Fantasy as a franchise has been snowballing in quality...especially with Final Fantasy XIII.

I've never played X-2 or XII...but I heard those weren't that great either.

I don't mind a spin-off of an original game that was good, like VII for example...but when they go adding 5 spin-offs to a game really they are beating used material to a pulp. ...and it seems like SE is becoming a heavier and heavier abuser of this.

I've been a fan of the series since IV and that was an amazing game imo. The graphics weren't that great on a SNES but the plot was awesome and the characters had substance. If only their games could be like this now. Instead we get visually stunning graphics, characters that are about as deep as the paper they were originally written on, and games that take you directly from point A to point B. Whatever happened to the towns, maps, and an original and engrossing plot(...and I'm obviously referencing XIII here)?

...and I'm still irritated with the presence of XIII-2. Not only am I weary of the fact that it was pushed out in a matter of about a year or two...I can only imagine how similar its going to be to XIII because of the short production time. As well as the fact that there is such a demand for Versus and Square side-stepping it's release for XIII-2.

However, it is what it is. Based on what I've read here I'm not the only one who agrees that the quality of their games is hinging on the not-so-great. If they keep it up they will get bought out or be put out of business...because there are many competitors out there who would be more than willing to take their place and eliminate the competition.

They won't go out of business. You guys should check their holdings sometime, they own an insane amount of gaming companies and have a large amount of shares in the ones they don't own. And that's just the gaming industry, they have interest in many other things as well.

 

[Tucker]

I would have to agree, Final Fantasied 10+ IMO were just bad. I still liked them, but they weren't living up to their name.

But, I think that's gonna turn around with Final Fantasy versus 13. I like the whole "Realistic yet still a Fantasy" thing, and I love the main character, Noctis. It's pretty dark and I sorta like that in a game

To others who dont like FF7's sequels, I personally love them! =) Mostly because I wanted to know more about Vincent, and I really like Kadaj. They are probably going to make another sequel though because of DoC's secret ending. Hopefully that'll be good and end the story in a success?

 

[Guernsey]

I wonder if the series can regain its luster under the right talent, Sakaguchi has pretty much moved to new things and so has Uematsu. I wonder if one day, we will get a director bold enough to make the new games more 'Final Fantasy-ish' while implementing new technology?