Zack vs. Cloud: Who's Stronger?

What do you mean "better graphics"? Final Fantasy: Advent Children was made with the most advanced CGI available to Square at the time, whereas Crisis Core was made on the PSP and with graphics comparable to the average Playstation 2 game. Besides, the difference in their releases was only two years. AC was released in 2005, and Crisis Core 2007, so obviously, the difference in graphics couldn't be that significant. It's also worth noting that Advent Children was a movie, whereas Crisis Core was a video-game. If anything, I'd say that Crisis Core's FMVs were, at best, on par with Advent Children's CGI. Its in-game graphics are worse than what we saw in AC. Even if Crisis Core's graphics were better, it wouldn't be large enough a difference to prevent them from having Sephiroth use any of his capabilities. If they could do the special effects for Bahamut's Mega Flare, the Forgotten City itself, Cloud's attacks such as Blade Beam and Omnislash, Vincent's cape form, and Materia being used, I think they could handle simple tricks like teleportation.

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This is a screenshot from Advent Children. And this...

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...is a screenshot from Crisis Core. I really don't see any noticeable difference in CC's favor. Actually, I'm inclined to say that Advent Children's graphics were superior.

Besides that is the fact that Sephiroth's abilities are not difficult to animate in the slightest. How hard could it possibly be for them to show Sephiroth using Iakiri, which is just a beam of energy flying across the screen. Hell, they already did that with Cloud's Blade Beam, so there's no reason Sephiroth couldn't use Iakiri. Octaslash involves Sephiroth slashing his opponent eight times. If they can manage Omnislash, they can manage Octaslash. As far as teleportation is concerned, they just have to show Sephiroth disappearing and reappearing. That couldn't be more simple. Just have him fade out in mid-flight, then fade back in at a different location than he was before. I don't know a whole lot about computer animation, but that strikes me as a ridiculously easy trick. Telekinesis would be even easier; hell, they already used it once. All they have to do is make Cloud stop moving and act as though he's being held in-place by the power of Sephiroth's mind. There's no reason why they couldn't show that. Intangibility is as simple as partially fading Sephiroth out and animating the First Tsurugi so that it goes through him, whereas the barrier is nothing more than a dome of semi-transparent light surrounding Sephiroth. All of these abilities are things that Square easily could've done...especially given the superior graphics of Advent Children. Honestly, these are all abilities Sephiroth displayed in the original Final Fantasy VII. If PS1 graphics are sufficient for displaying Sephiroth's powers, a high-quality CGI movie should easily be able to do the same.

It wasn't a matter of time constraints, either. Even if it was, though, that doesn't really change the fact that the creators have said that Sephiroth was hardly exerting any effort at all against Cloud. Laziness doesn't have anything to do with it. Sephiroth had many abilities available to him that he didn't use against Cloud. They were established powers of Sephiroth's that he used in the original game. If he were taking Cloud seriously, he would have used at least some of them. However, he restricted himself to swordsmanship and flight, and the creators of the storyline even said he wasn't exerting any effort. There's really no sense in arguing. The people who made Advent Children have said that he wasn't trying, not to mention the overwhelming evidence that he didn't exert effort. While it's true that Cloud obtained great strength when he pulled off Omnislash, the only reason it worked at all was because Sephiroth was too arrogant to move down, which would've rendered the attack useless. Even then, since it took Cloud literally hours to build up the necessary Spirit Energy to use Omnislash, Sephiroth could've simply ended the fight long before he used it.
 
From my point of view, the creators made Sephiroth too strong, to the point that they actually had to come up with a lame ass excuse for why Cloud manages to beat him. But I think we have all drifted away from the real argument here, is Cloud ever stronger or as strong as Zack? I agree with The_Oathkeeper in that there isn't any sense in arguing about the whole Cloud vs. Sephiroth deal, but Cloud vs. Zack is a totally different argument, and it is much harder to get on the side of either Zack or Cloud considering the fact that they never had a face to face confrontation. Also if they did, it would once again return to what version of the characters we are talking about...

Crisis Core: Zack kicks Clouds ass hands down.

Beginning of Final Fantasy VII: Zack still beats Cloud.

End of Final Fantasy VII: They are an even match.

Advent Children: They probably still are a match. Cloud might beat Zack.
 
Ugh, I just read this whole entire debate, and it gave me a headache reading over all the times poor Oathkeeper had to repeat himself.

It's like some of you don't even bother to read the details, because all I know is that what I have seen is innumerous amounts of posts saying that
"Zack lost to Sephiroth in Nibelheim, so he is OWNED."

Please.

During that fight, we see two different parts, first off
They fight one on one, with Sephiroth going all out. Zack is able to hold his own for a little bit until he decides to break the floor, and Sephiroth, obviously being a better swordsman than Zack, has the advantage on the enclosed bridge. Yet Zack, still manages to not fall into the lifestream, but in the long run is still overpowered by Sephiroth, and thrown out of Jenova's holding room, where he is immobolized by pain. Sephiroth then indulges himself in freeing his mother, and hence is why he is unaware of Cloud's presence and is cheap shotted by a big ass sword, and then overwhelmed with pain.

After all that being taken into account, he then attacks Cloud and very easily impales him with a sword. Cloud then finds some hidden adrenaline and is by sheer luck able to toss Sephiroth into the lifestream.

So you can't even begin to consider that a reference.

Now, to get all accusations out of the way, I am in no way saying that one is better than the other. I agree with Oathkeeper, in saying that they are both equals.

Sorry to bring a dead topic back to life, but this was just ridiculous.
 
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the only way i believe that cloud could beat zack is that zack died and cloud survived... but seeing as both their weopans are the same... erm... zack still because he held it first thus it goes without saying that he had more practice with it... also hes just better anyway i mean come on... black hair and original fashion sense pwns blonde hair and stolen fashion sense
 
the only way i believe that cloud could beat zack is that zack died and cloud survived

That's another thing.

Usually in a "Who's stronger" thread, you don't take into account if one of them is dead. If we were going to compare Sephiroth or Tifa, you wouln't say Tifa is stronger just because she is alive. It doesn't work that way. You compare skills, accomplishments, and strength.
 
I think Zack is stronger because he´s a 1st Class Soldier and Cloud didn´t make it when he try to become one...........he´s just a soldier..............
 
I think Zack is stronger because he´s a 1st Class Soldier and Cloud didn´t make it when he try to become one...........he´s just a soldier..............

Perhaps Cloud just didn't ever realise his potential?

At the Nibelheim incident it was seen that Cloud possesed enough innate strength to beat Sephiroth... A lowly Shinra guard made the ultimate stand, and the unexpecting Sephiroth was "killed"..

Such a display caught the interest of Hojo who decided to take him in to experiment on along with Zack, as he was compelled to find out what allowed Cloud to get close to Sephiroth, never mind defeat him. So therefore Cloud has a considerable amount of strength too..

Also.. When Zack died and Cloud took up his persona, he was able to play out the role he convinced himself he was very convincingly indeed, and was very strong in the game of FF7, to about Zacks level perhaps, if not more.
 
Perhaps Cloud just didn't ever realise his potential?
No, Cloud never made it into SOLDIER for a reason. There wasn't really any potential there to be realized. Physically speaking, Cloud was suitable for receiving the SOLDIER treatment, but due to his mental weakness, he was rejected. However, I'm not necessarily saying that you're wrong, and that Zack's position as a 1st Class SOLDIER instantly makes him superior. On the contrary, I believe that Cloud has obtained the strength of a 1st Class SOLDIER over the course of his journey. I also think that, in a different sense, Cloud does have unrealized potential in the sense that he will get stronger by the end of the FFVII Compilation. That much is basically certain. I think he eventually will surpass Zack, but that hasn't happened yet, based on what I've seen so far of their respective capabilities.

At the Nibelheim incident it was seen that Cloud possesed enough innate strength to beat Sephiroth... A lowly Shinra guard made the ultimate stand, and the unexpecting Sephiroth was "killed"..
That's called adrenaline, dude...Everyone has it. You've got it, I've got it, it's a trait common to all humans, actually. There have been reports of mothers, in the middle of adrenaline rushes, lifting cars off of their children. Mothers aren't exactly famous for their combat efficiency or physical strength. Added to that is the fact that (as I've said many times...) Sephiroth had just been run through with the Buster Sword. Yes, Cloud was clearly in peak physical condition as far as normal humans go because he was referred to as physically qualified for SOLDIER, but what he experienced was nothing more than an adrenaline rush. If we were following Last Order (where Cloud evidently had Mako eyes despite never having gone through the SOLDIER treatment), then I could see you saying that Cloud had a sort of special inner strength. However, Crisis Core overrode that by getting rid of the "Mako Eyes" concept. It was just an adrenaline rush.

Such a display caught the interest of Hojo who decided to take him in to experiment on along with Zack, as he was compelled to find out what allowed Cloud to get close to Sephiroth, never mind defeat him. So therefore Cloud has a considerable amount of strength too..
Hojo experiments were done on all the survivors of the Nibelheim Incident. It wasn't just Cloud and Zack. Yes, Hojo took note of the fact that he was the one who finished Sephiroth off, but that wasn't the deciding factor in him deciding to experiment on Cloud. If that were the case, I suppose all the citizens of Nibelheim had special inner strength.
 
No, Cloud never made it into SOLDIER for a reason. There wasn't really any potential there to be realized. Physically speaking, Cloud was suitable for receiving the SOLDIER treatment, but due to his mental weakness, he was rejected.

Yeah I believe his mind wasn’t right, hence why his potential was hidden, as he had not the right mind for it at the time. Inside him was still incredible strength. There must have been, for him to carry the buster sword and to be able to act out as an “Ex-Soldier” at the beginning of FF7.. Sure he wouldn’t have been as powerful as Zack then, but over time he would show incredible strength.

That's called adrenaline, dude...Everyone has it. You've got it, I've got it, it's a trait common to all humans, actually.

Would adrenaline realy be all it takes to beat the most fearsome 1st class Soldier? I’m sure many of the Wutai soldiers were filled with adrenaline at the loss of their families or comrades in the Wutai war, and yet Sephiroth managed to hand their asses back to them with little to it at all. Likewise… Tifa was full of adrenaline when she went to face Sephiroth, after the death of her father, and she was cut down at ease. Even Zack was probably full of adrenaline, a strong first class Soldier, angry at the whole incident and he was, after putting up a brave effort, defeated.


If we were following Last Order (where Cloud evidently had Mako eyes despite never having gone through the SOLDIER treatment), then I could see you saying that Cloud had a sort of special inner strength. However, Crisis Core overrode that by getting rid of the "Mako Eyes" concept. It was just an adrenaline rush.

I was actually going by FF7, not any of the spin offs… Cloud does show considerable strength in this, at the Nibelheim incident.. I haven't played the ending of Crisis Core yet, but regardless of what it tells you on there, I realy do prefer to treat the actual game as canon.


Hojo experiments were done on all the survivors of the Nibelheim Incident. It wasn't just Cloud and Zack. Yes, Hojo took note of the fact that he was the one who finished Sephiroth off, but that wasn't the deciding factor in him deciding to experiment on Cloud. If that were the case, I suppose all the citizens of Nibelheim had special inner strength.

Yes, all of the survivors of the incident were taken for the experiment, but Cloud and Zack were kept seperate from the rest of the survivors for all I know (in the Shinra Mansion Basement), I may be wrong, but this is judging from what they showed in FF7.
Hojo did make a special case for the man who defeated Sephiroth. He found it intriguing.

I guess it’s all down to interpretation of the event.

Sure the first intial stab by Cloud with the Buster Sword my have been down to sheer surprise, as Sephiroth was busy with Jenova… But the second time, while Sephiroth was walking away, Cloud even called out to him, alerting Sephiroth that he was still there. Sephiroth stabs Cloud with his Masamune and lifts it in the air, and Cloud pulls it inwards, and then pulls himself back to the ground then lifts Sephiroth up into the air and threw him into the core of the reactor. No matter how you put it, that is considerable strength, and I honestly don’t think it can be put down to purely adrenaline… Especially if his mind wasn't right, as surely fear would have taken over and left him a weak mess on the floor...

I also think that Zack also may have seen Clouds potential.. Urging him not to give up, and giving him the order to kill Sephiroth, rather than to run and save himself. But that aside, I realy felt that Zack saw in Cloud somethign that Cloud was not realising himself... And this is going from everythign I have seen in FF7, Crisis Core and The Last Order now, and not just FF7 (as the rest of my post has mainly been), but the conversations with Zack.. Zack has alot of confidence in Cloud.

EDIT - Before people begin to grill me thinking that I am saying that Cloud is stronger than Zack, that is not what I am saying at all.. I am merely saying that Cloud wasn't as weak as some people are thinking now.
 
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Yeah I believe his mind wasn’t right, hence why his potential was hidden, as he had not the right mind for it at the time. Inside him was still incredible strength. There must have been, for him to carry the buster sword and to be able to act out as an “Ex-Soldier” at the beginning of FF7.. Sure he wouldn’t have been as powerful as Zack then, but over time he would show incredible strength.
Physically, he had potential, but he still wasn't suitable for SOLDIER. This was proven when he was put through the procedure for creating SOLDIER and was left in a comatose state. Anyone with potential to become a SOLDIER would've simply resisted the influence of the J-Cells and gained the strength that comes with the process. Cloud, however, would've ended up like the rest of the Sephiroth Copies (a mindless drone drawn to the Reunion upon Jenova's awakening) had Tifa not found him and invoked an emotional reaction. It wasn't so much due to his "potential" as it was his good fortune in meeting someone who he knew before receiving the treatment. It's more than just physical strength that makes people good candidates for SOLDIER. Cloud's lack of mental strength made him intelligible, which is just as much a factor as his physical strength in deciding good candidates. Mako gives any suitable candidates superhuman strength.

As for Cloud being able to pretend he was an ex-SOLDIER...Well, yeah, he'd gone through the Mako and J-Cell Infusion. That doesn't have anything to do with how skilled he was compared to other SOLDIER. The fact of the matter was that, because he'd been experimented on, he had the strength of someone in SOLDIER. It probably had next to nothing to do with his sheer skill as far as other SOLDIERs go, just the fact that he had the strength/durability of one of them. Again, though, the same can be said for anyone who went through the procedure and managed to avoid becoming a puppet of Jenova. It certainly isn't confirmation of any special potential on Cloud's part considering all SOLDIER are stronger than regular humans. To a normal person, even the weakest SOLDIER is impossibly strong. Around the time of his joining AVALANCHE, I'd say that Cloud had the strength of a strong 3rd Class SOLDIER/weak 2nd Class SOLDIER.

Would adrenaline realy be all it takes to beat the most fearsome 1st class Soldier? I’m sure many of the Wutai soldiers were filled with adrenaline at the loss of their families or comrades in the Wutai war, and yet Sephiroth managed to hand their asses back to them with little to it at all. Likewise… Tifa was full of adrenaline when she went to face Sephiroth, after the death of her father, and she was cut down at ease. Even Zack was probably full of adrenaline, a strong first class Soldier, angry at the whole incident and he was, after putting up a brave effort, defeated.
Yes, adrenaline would be enough to beat the most fearsome 1st Class SOLDIER...given that the 1st Class SOLDIER in question had already been impaled through the back with a sword as large as he is. I'm not sure how that doesn't make sense. If you impale someone through the back, they're going to be weakened. Cloud ran up to Sephiroth from behind and impaled him...with a sword as large as he was, no less. Hell, most people would've been paralyzed from the waist down after that, considering the Buster Sword was far too large to have missed his spinal chord. The fact that Sephiroth could still walk, let alone hold up the Masamune, was a miracle. He was even limping out of Jenova's chamber. Cloud did not overpower the world's strongest 1st Class SOLDIER, he overpowered a man who had just had his body practically torn in half and was undoubtedly suffering massive blood loss not to mention a severed spinal chord. Sephiroth had sustained a serious injury and was clearly nowhere near his full strength. Had Sephiroth been remotely close to that, Cloud wouldn't have had a chance.

And the adrenaline of those you listed is either nonexistent or nowhere near what Cloud experienced. The Wutai Soldiers you mentioned hadn't just witnessed with their own two eyes the deaths of their family and friends. It had happened a while ago. Any adrenaline would've kicked in only if they were confronting their family's killer immediately after they died. If there were any sort of adrenaline rush, it would've worn off long before they were confronted by Sephiroth. If anything, they'd be experiencing grief, which would only weaken them and prevent them from fighting well. Zack was, as you said, a strong 1st Class SOLDIER. He was used to that sort of life-threatening situation. I don't think you really understand adrenaline. It only truly kicks in when someone's survival is in extreme danger. Tifa and Zack both acted out of anger; Zack more so out of a desire to find out Sephiroth's true motives. There was no adrenaline there. If there was, it wasn't significant. Cloud, meanwhile, had been impaled on a sword and lifted off the ground. His survival instincts (because a human's first instinct is survival) kicked in, which was what gave him the adrenaline rush.

I was actually going by FF7, not any of the spin offs… Cloud does show considerable strength in this, at the Nibelheim incident.. I haven't played the ending of Crisis Core yet, but regardless of what it tells you on there, I realy do prefer to treat the actual game as canon.
But the Compilation retconned certain aspects of the game's canon, and that's what we have to accept as fact in these types of threads. Besides, even in the original Nibelheim Incident, Cloud didn't show any unique inner strength. Hell, the Nibelheim Incident is pretty much the same in Crisis Core as it was in FF7. The only time where Cloud seemed to have had any unique strength was in Last Order, where he apparently had Mako eyes when he threw Sephiroth across the room. However, that, too, has been retconned and deemed not canon. It was just an adrenaline rush. The most recent adaptation of that scene says so. Even the original version of the scene didn't have Cloud display any particularly unique skills or abilities. Only adrenaline. In the original, it could be argued that Sephiroth's blade actually missed and Cloud caught it underneath his arm due to the outdated graphics, but I'm not going to go there. The fact is that Sephiroth had already been impaled and weakened. It was just adrenaline.

Yes, all of the survivors of the incident were taken for the experiment, but Cloud and Zack were kept seperate from the rest of the survivors for all I know (in the Shinra Mansion Basement), I may be wrong, but this is judging from what they showed in FF7.
Hojo did make a special case for the man who defeated Sephiroth. He found it intriguing.
Even if they were kept separate from the rest of the test subjects, they still received the same treatment as they did. Maybe Hojo just ran out of room/places to put the remaining subjects, or perhaps the fact that he found Cloud and Zack last had something to do with it. Even if he found it intriguing, though, he probably didn't know that, when Sephiroth had been finished off, Cloud had already impaled him through the back. Besides, it was stated that, as far as unenhanced humans went, Cloud was exceptionally strong. However, that doesn't speak for any superhuman powers on his part, only that he was strong by normal human standards. It wasn't as though he had the strength of a genuine SOLDIER or anything like that...

Sure the first intial stab by Cloud with the Buster Sword my have been down to sheer surprise, as Sephiroth was busy with Jenova… But the second time, while Sephiroth was walking away, Cloud even called out to him, alerting Sephiroth that he was still there. Sephiroth stabs Cloud with his Masamune and lifts it in the air, and Cloud pulls it inwards, and then pulls himself back to the ground then lifts Sephiroth up into the air and threw him into the core of the reactor. No matter how you put it, that is considerable strength, and I honestly don’t think it can be put down to purely adrenaline… Especially if his mind wasn't right, as surely fear would have taken over and left him a weak mess on the floor...
Yeah, the second time, Cloud made his presence known to Sephiroth...after he'd been impaled through the back. It doesn't matter if Cloud alerted Sephiroth to his presence or not. The simple fact that Sephiroth had his torso nearly split in half by the Buster Sword should be enough evidence to support my claim that he was severely weakened. He was even limping when Cloud called out to him. You try lifting a sword with one arm after being impaled through the back and see if it's as easy as you make it out to be. In fact, as stated earlier, any normal human would've been paralyzed after that. Sephiroth was barely walking, yet you're treating it as though it was a fair fight. It's like me walking up to an eighth degree black belt who had recently been hospitalized and put in a wheelchair, kicking him down a flight of stairs, and claiming to be equal in skill to a master martial artist. It just wasn't a fair fight. Furthermore, fear is actually what brings about adrenaline rushes in the first place. It's our desire to survive in the face of death that gets the adrenaline flowing, so the fact that Cloud was afraid made him more susceptible to the adrenaline rush he received. Cloud never showed anything beyond human capability. Yes, as far as humans went, he was very strong and had powerful survival instincts, but that's it.
I also think that Zack also may have seen Clouds potential.. Urging him not to give up, and giving him the order to kill Sephiroth, rather than to run and save himself. But that aside, I realy felt that Zack saw in Cloud somethign that Cloud was not realising himself... And this is going from everythign I have seen in FF7, Crisis Core and The Last Order now, and not just FF7 (as the rest of my post has mainly been), but the conversations with Zack.. Zack has alot of confidence in Cloud.
That's because Cloud was the only person left who could theoretically, conceivably stop him. Sephiroth had already been impaled through the back (as stated) as well as two separate fights. Zack knew that, if Sephiroth got out, he would simply go on a rampage and kill more innocent people, so he told Cloud to give it a shot and try to finish Sephiroth off. Besides, if Cloud had a special inner strength, why did it take the absolute worst case scenario (the very survival of Cloud and his best friends) for Cloud to do so? If you'd watch the scene from Crisis Core, you'd see that
Cloud actually attacked Sephiroth head-on before getting impaled. Right when he's (Sephiroth) walking out of Jenova's Chamber, Cloud attacks him...and gets casually thrown aside. So basically, even after having his torso nearly ripped apart, Sephiroth can still throw Cloud away like a rag doll. In fact, I'll just show you.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ip9SVKlV6uI

EDIT - Before people begin to grill me thinking that I am saying that Cloud is stronger than Zack, that is not what I am saying at all.. I am merely saying that Cloud wasn't as weak as some people are thinking now.
Of course Cloud isn't weak. Nobody's saying he's weak, just that he isn't as strong as Zack. Cloud has the strength of a 1st Class SOLDIER, which I think people tend to underestimate. 1st Class SOLDIERs are the elites; they are the best fighters on the planet. Not just anyone can obtain that kind of skill. Even a 3rd Class SOLDIER is considered an incredible fighter, and those in 1st Class are elite even among them. However, Zack, Sephiroth, Genesis, and Angeal are a cut above 1st Class SOLDIER. If there were a rank above 1st, they would've been there. That's not to say Cloud isn't one of the strongest people in the FFVII universe, just that he's nowhere near the strongest. Do I think he'll become as strong as or stronger than Zack by the end of the Compilation? Of course. He's the main character, and the Compilation will (unfortunately) last for ten more years. But right now, Zack seems to surpass him, if only by a small margin.
 
Cloud

I would say Cloud, as he is a Sephiroth Clone, (only one that survived) and even though he did sneak attack him in the reactor, Zack tells him to kill Sephiroth. That sounds like Zack is acknowledging that Cloud is stronger to me. And, Omnislash is the most powerful attack in the game.:randomlaugh:
 
Cloud being a Sephiroth Clone doesn't really imply that he has any sort of unique power...well, not any sort of unique power that all the other SOLDIERs don't have, as well. The only thing that the term "Sephiroth Clone" (and "Clone" is a pretty inaccurate word to describe what they really are) means is that Cloud was one of the test subjects who were put through the SOLDIER procedure despite not being mentally and physically suitable. As such, he was vulnerable to Jenova/Sephiroth's influence and felt drawn to the Reunion by his will. The fact that he survived and was able to exercise his own will (which was only due to interference from Tifa bringing him out of his comatose state, anyway, not because of any strength on his part) only meant that he received the strength that comes with being a member of SOLDIER. He didn't obtain anything unique or inherently more powerful. He certainly didn't receive the strength of Sephiroth, anyway. That wasn't the purpose of the experiment. In fact, a Sephiroth Clone is basically just a person in a vegetative state due to not being suitable to go through the SOLDIER procedure; they're pitifully weak, actually.

And again, Cloud was the only person left. Literally. He was the only person who had any sort of chance at that point. The citizens were either dead or injured, Zack himself had been incapacitated, Tifa was unconscious, and Sephiroth was about to commit mass genocide on the people of the planet. Zack had absolutely no choice but to have Cloud attempt to finish Sephiroth off. What else is he going to do? Tell Cloud to run and endanger the possibly thousands of other innocent people Sephiroth would undoubtedly kill before being captured? I doubt Sephiroth was planning to leave Zack and Tifa alive, either. Zack didn't necessarily have a whole lot of faith in Cloud, but he did know for sure that a great deal of people (himself, Tifa, and even Cloud) were in danger. Someone had to do something, and Cloud was literally the only person there.
 
thats true... zack saw that the only chance he had of slowing sephiroth down... or stopping him was for cloud to challenge him... it wasnt that cloud was stronger merely the only one in that position not to mention that as the original wielder of the buster sword (im saying this as i never saw angiel actually wield it in battle) he would be stronger with it than cloud
 
Well, Cloud didn't really defeat Sephiroth if you really think about it, Sephiroth wasn't in the mind to fight off Cloud because he didn't consider Cloud a threat at all. If you see this matter in the view of Crisis Core (which distorts a bit of the story) Cloud was made into what he is today because of Zack, as if he assimilated just about everything about Zack himself. After all, he spent most of the time when he was actually semi-conscious with Zack, Cloud wasn't completely conscious but he could see what Zack was doing, I really do think Cloud learned everything he knows today from watching Zack while they were trying to escape. After all, Cloud didn't even make it to 1st Class, never, if he knew all these moves and was powerful back then why didnt he make it? I just think it was because he didn't know anything of the sort till after he spent all that time with Zack.
 
i agree... but he only spent about 5 months with zack "travelling" as before that they were in "cryo-chambers" (sorry dont know what they are really called) i wonder how anyone could not only learn the moves but mimic that persons entire personality in that short space of time... some one help me figure this out
 
I think they are even, if Zack isnt a step ahead of Cloud.

I was going to explain my reasoning, but noticed the_oathkeeper already said everything I could possibly say! I hail your ownage man!

And another point of view, why not look at their mental strenghts?
 
The toughest thing that cloud kills is sephiroth and he needs help to do this whereas zack nearly takes out an entire army batallion and not to mention a godess without any help at all so i would have to say zack is stronger.
 
Cloud has a stronger heart, all the life He has pass have form him into a strong hero, after who is allways there to protect the world from Sephiroth? Cloud.
Who beat Sephiroth so many times? Cloud.
Zack is charismatic but I think more that He should. His confidence has let him down sometimes (in the end of CC he was a lot more mature but still he have some childist inside him). Cloud his more mature, I hardly see him laught, very disturbing.

Cya**
 
Cloud has a stronger heart, all the life He has pass have form him into a strong hero, after who is allways there to protect the world from Sephiroth?

Crisis AVALANCHE, which consists of eight people, not just Cloud.

Who beat Sephiroth so many times? Cloud.

Well, the first time, Cloud cheapshotted him and then got a burst of adrenaline that allowed him to throw an extremely weakened Sephiroth into the Lifestream. The second time, it was a joint effort. Yes, Cloud did play a large role in the defeat of Sephiroth and the protection of the Planet, but so did Vincent, Yuffie, Cid, Tifa, Barret, Red XIII, and Cait Sith. Of course, Cloud is the main character, but it was still the entire team that defeated Bizarro and Safer Sephiroth. The third time, Sephiroth wasn't even acknowledging Cloud as a serious threat and fooling around with him for several hours, restricting himself to basic swordsmanship and flight as opposed to using the rest of his array of powers, and even ignoring several opportunities to kill Cloud. Yeah, Cloud's certainly always there to fight against Sephiroth, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Cloud is stronger than Sephiroth.

Zack is charismatic but I think more that He should. His confidence has let him down sometimes (in the end of CC he was a lot more mature but still he have some childist inside him). Cloud his more mature, I hardly see him laught, very disturbing.

I'm not really sure how being charismatic and lighthearted is a sign of a lack of maturity. Zack is an extremely mature person. Anyone willing to, for the sake of a friend, rush into a battle that they know they most likely aren't going to return from alive is an extremely mature person. Zack regularly shows himself to be fearless and selfless, whereas Cloud is somewhat weak throughout most of the Compilation, unable to come to terms with his own shortcomings rather than simply plowing through his self-doubt to achieve his goals. Even so, I don't really think emotional maturity can be used to determine who would win in a fight. I know for a fact that Sora, despite being far more lighthearted and generally childlike, would systematically and effortlessly dominate Cloud in a fight. Zack is the same way, even though I really don't consider him immature.

Sorry if I come across as irritable, by the way. I know you probably aren't aware of it, but I've basically spent this whole thread reiterating the same points over and over again as more and more people enter and refuse to listen. That sort of thing is bound to get on a guy's nerves after a while...
 
Cloud has Zack beat. Sephiroth defeated Zack at the Nibelheim reactor whilst Cloud defeated Sephiroth. This alone proves that Cloud could whoop Zack any day of the week. And then there's his wicked limit, Omnislash.:cloud:
 
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