Aerith and her Faith

[Saints&Storms]

I never really used Aeris in my party so I have no clue as to what her limit break looks like; however, angels are prevalent in Judaism as well. As for the word gospel, as ordinary vernacular we call M,M,L,J as the four gospels; however, the word "gospel" in it of itself is a reference to the gospel of the kingdom (as it is referenced in the Bible).

But compile the word Gospel, with Angels in a Roman style, which is basically where Christianity started to flourish after Jesus started to teach, and it basically add up to Catholicism or Christianity.

Also, when I said that Christians don't rely so heavily on the Old testament, I didn't mean that they disregard it in its entirety. But a lot of the teachings of love and forgiveness only flourished when Jesus came around preaching that stuff. I'm not a really religious person; however I have read the Bible (mostly) and there is a sweeping change in terms of themes as well as message when going from the Old to the New testaments. Christians tend to focus on the latter part more heavily while Judaism solely focuses on the Old.

We don't rely heavily on it, but it isn't exempt that's for sure. Yes, I know some things in the Old Testament were adjusted once Jesus died on the Cross.

I know, being a Christian I know what we focus on, and we don't really single it out.

I don't want to derail this into a religious argument, so I'm just going to make a concession that we have no idea as to her particular religion. All the developers likely wanted to impart is showing how she may be a part of the overarching religious themes as well as that she's just a really great kid

No, I don't think you saw my post where I stated that Jewish people don't pray to have requests or needs answered like we Christians do -- Jewish people pray for what kind of person they should be or should become.

Aerith is seen praying on her knees, Roman style angels then come down upon the team and heal them and so on, that's having a prayer answered or a request fulfilled, which is how Christians pray -- not Jews.

---

Another point I'd like to make; people in this thread from what I recall, have tried to deny the existence of Religion in the FF world all together, but I recall a Tower of Babel in FFIV -- it seems eerily close to the Tower of Babel.

 

[Lebreau]

Another point I'd like to make; people in this thread from what I recall, have tried to deny the existence of Religion in the FF world all together, but I recall a Tower of Babel in FFIV -- it seems eerily close to the Tower of Babel.

I don't know much about religion other than the one I used to be forced to "practice" (though that wasn't very much since force never helps) but I have something to say about this.

Is FFIV in the same world as FFVII? Do we have any reason to believe FFIV and FFVII are connected? I don't believe we do, after playing both games.

My final opinion on this thread, after reading ALL (yes, ALL ) of this thread, is that while Aerith is not a Christian as we see it, but there are many signs and symbols OF Christianity in the game.

And I still think Aerith prays to the planet. I don't believe that's Christianity, though anyone who knows more about religion AND can back their facts up is welcome to try and change my mind.

 

[Ayen]

Another point I'd like to make; people in this thread from what I recall, have tried to deny the existence of Religion in the FF world all together, but I recall a Tower of Babel in FFIV -- it seems eerily close to the Tower of Babel.

Who's trying to deny that there was never religion in Final Fantasy period? I only see people debating whether or not religion or a particular religion is in the world of Final Fantasy VII. Because if somebody said there was never religion in Final Fantasy period needs to play Final Fantasy X.

I don't know much about religion other than the one I used to be forced to "practice" (though that wasn't very much since force never helps) but I have something to say about this.

Is FFIV in the same world as FFVII? Do we have any reason to believe FFIV and FFVII are connected? I don't believe we do, after playing both games.

My final opinion on this thread, after reading ALL (yes, ALL ) of this thread, is that while Aerith is not a Christian as we see it, but there are many signs and symbols OF Christianity in the game.

And I still think Aerith prays to the planet. I don't believe that's Christianity, though anyone who knows more about religion AND can back their facts up is welcome to try and change my mind.

No praying to the planet, which would be Earth in our case, doesn't have anything to do with Christianity that's more along the lines of Wicca. And if Aerith is a Christian and she's praying to the Planet then either somebody in development doesn't know anything about Christianity or she isn't a Christian. Because there's a contrasts there and if they were serious about making her a Christian I don't think that would be there but that's my opinion and I digress because Final Fantasy VII already been over-analyzed to death here more than I think any game should ever be analyzed by anybody. After much review I think Aerith represents some Wicca and Christian symbolism and there's nothing wrong with that.

So I'm just going to agree to disagree, gg, chow, cya on the farside, whatever applies...

 

[Saints&Storms]

I don't know much about religion other than the one I used to be forced to "practice" (though that wasn't very much since force never helps) but I have something to say about this.

Is FFIV in the same world as FFVII? Do we have any reason to believe FFIV and FFVII are connected? I don't believe we do, after playing both games.

I am a still practicing Christian, and I know a LOT about my religion, and everything I see points to Aerith being a Christian or Catholic.

I don't know if the worlds are connected (nothing saying they aren't, I think FFIV even has Ancients) but it couldn't be too far fetched to assume since religion influenced FFIV its possible it did the same for FFVII, what with the Hebrew names and such.

And I still think Aerith prays to the planet. I don't believe that's Christianity, though anyone who knows more about religion AND can back their facts up is welcome to try and change my mind.

She prayed to Holy didn't she? I thought she could just hear the planet, I think I also remember her praying for it.

That still leaves us with the angels descending from the sky that are in Roman style after Aerith gets on her knees and prays, Aerith goes to a Church that she calls a "sacred place", The angel statues all around Edge, the Cross on Vincents coffin in Nibelheim, and the use of the word Gospel along with all of this.

Who's trying to deny that there was never religion in Final Fantasy period? I only see people debating whether or not religion or a particular religion is in the world of Final Fantasy VII. Because if somebody said there was never religion in Final Fantasy period needs to play Final Fantasy X.

I believe quite a few people said it

No praying to the planet, which would be Earth in our case, doesn't have anything to do with Christianity that's more along the lines of Wicca. And if Aerith is a Christian and she's praying to the Planet then either somebody in development doesn't know anything about Christianity or she isn't a Christian. Because there's a contrasts there and if they were serious about making her a Christian I don't think that would be there but that's my opinion and I digress because Final Fantasy VII already been over-analyzed to death here more than I think any game should ever be analyzed by anybody. After much review I think Aerith represents some Wicca and Christian symbolism and there's nothing wrong with that.

Actually I think there is a type of Christianity that is like being a wicca; I think that'd be Esoteric Christianity or something.

So I'm just going to agree to disagree, gg, chow, cya on the farside, whatever applies...

See ya.

 

[Dionysos]

The Tower of Babil is indeed an obvious reference to the Tower of Babel but more so for it being a famous story within the Bible, and them wanting to reference this when creating their own tower which enters the heavens. You could argue that there is something religious behind it, and this wouldn’t be farfetched as FFIV could be argued to be very religious in nature (expelling the darkness from within ourselves and becoming pure, etc), but it is likely just a reference so that we can, by association, know that this is one heck of a tower. It’s similar to the countless other references to other mythical and religious stories of many cultures.

(A lot of this post which is following is what I was meant to post a month ago, but the thread died for me – I’m only posting it because I felt that I’d spent a long time on it )

While people are free to interpret this game however they wish, that does not create hard existence for everyone else. If we take that influence = existence then FFVII is one heck of a f*cked up world if we were to apply that to everything else.

A very brief (although admittedly exaggerated) overview: The Egypto-Aztec-Atlaneans worshipped the earth and the Lifestream until Jehovah landed and destroyed their culture. Thousands of years after this we find a Buddhist Japan in the West (whose people also worship the biblical monster Leviathan), and throughout the rest of the world we find a company-run empire which has Christianity as a religion for the oppressed masses underneath a giant plate in its capital. Las Vegas and the Grand Canyon are also present in this world, and Johannes Bugenhagen resides in the Grand Canyon surrounded by endangered lupine Native-Americans. Meanwhile, our party is formed; a terrorist group led by Mr. T who originates from a mining town from somewhere in the Wild West. They can summon Bahamut, Hades and Typhon from the portals linked to Earth, and so can Aerith, who is a descendant of the Egypto-Aztec-Atlanteans, but is now a Christian. The party chase a fallen hero who shows off his prowess by slaying Jörmungandr, the Midgard Serpent. The party meets a vampire in the basement of a freaky mansion, and he is Christian too, but he can turn into a beast, a bat-monster, Jason and Frankenstein because he was dating Lucretia, whose rape and suicide ended the early Roman Monarchy and started the Roman Republic; so Vincent sadly fell in with the wrong crowd and was sent to a coffin in a Transylvanian basement, and he became a monster. They band together to defeat a manifestation of / pathway to god that is Sephiroth and also Jehovah himself (herself), and the world is saved because the Christian Aerith directs the flow of the Lifestream, the spirit of the planet itself, to stop a giant meteor from destroying the planet.

The world of FFVII, when put like that, can seem as if God has simply put our planet in a blender, took a sip, spat out the contents and had it frozen in a globe-shaped ice-cube maker tray.



Many elements and cultures resemble our own, I’d agree, but they are not our own, and since the Buddhist-themed Wutai’s ‘Buddha’ is named Da Chao, we can possibly assume that IF the church in Midgar was to be connected with Christianity then it would be under a different name, and only based off of it for visual and familiarity purposes. What I mean here is that these things cannot exist in an actual sense, but we could state that the game creators have used this imagery, have used these buildings with the intent of making a point in some cases, , and in others they were simply drawing from a vast pool of resources within our world so that they can be saved from having to create everything from scratch (if such is even possible), and having to explain all of that in the narrative. I do not believe that the creators were trying to colonise the planet of FFVII with our actual religions, only making several points for reflection of our own planet, some comments about the past, and others a warning for our future.


Why did they choose a church when all religions have holy places? Probably because a lot of fantasy to this day is set in the Medieval ages / ages resembling such, and are set in European-based societies. Many Japanese fantasy games have churches, and so it was already a habit within the genre for the creators of RPGs to add a church when in need of a sacred place. Naming this building a church in the English translation only made sense, really, as it essentially was a church in design. That’s not to say that the faith behind that church was that of Christianity even in the minds of the developers. To the gamer the presence of a church will probably immediately ring Christianity to them, but then many gamers will eventually forget (or push to the side) these connections as the game proceeds without any obvious Christian allusions within the narrative. The church also allows us to draw several comparisons between the FFVII world and our planet, but no actual links. I agree that there were likely conscious decisions involved in the adding of such things, but not that they had any real care for the Christian faith when they put them in, and therefore the spirit of that religion was not transferred into the FFVII universe (if we are to take the faith of a religion to be a feeling, a thought, or a belief rather than just a building or a symbol which to me are empty without the necessary faith behind them).

I honestly cannot accept that influence = existence. Either we take that world as being totally messed up and inconsistent in all ways possible, or we just take that elements from each of these cultures have been used in writing the fiction, and part of the meaning and significance, but ultimately not the underlying beliefs themselves, are rehashed. It might just be a flaw of mine, but I cannot accept that a religion can exist on a planet without worshippers, or any faith that this religion exists. A god is dead when no-one believes in him / her, I feel. Since no names are mentioned regarding God or Jesus, and since the only names which come close to these are used for the villains who the party (including Aerith) fight against, I cannot believe that God and Jesus exist in the FFVII universe in connection to the faith found in the church, and also not in connection with Aerith. The architectural style of the church, the angelic imagery and the method of praying could simply have just formed in another culture, on another planet, but for different beliefs which do not have any connection to Jesus Christ.

Also, if Christianity is to be taken as existing merely because the game developers added a church, which has the connotations of Christianity with it, then all of the other faiths referenced in the game must technically exist too, which would mean that in my opinion Aerith becomes multi-faith anyway. I’m not going to repeat all of the other religious references found within Aerith, nor am I going to say again that she is a combination of religious beliefs or is a representation of Faith itself, as it has been said in this thread countless times by a few people. If Christianity exists then it cannot, because it would mean that Aerith is not a Christian, and therefore its only worshipper is multi-faith.

If we’re to take the religious references as symbolisms and comparisons, then yes they mean a lot to me too. I like to think deep and interpret things in different ways, and I like to spot references to Earth and its history (or even other fiction as well) within the Final Fantasy games, as there is a lot there. I just don’t believe that the religious beliefs (at least not in the same way as being argued in this thread) are behind them, and I think that the religions themselves don’t actually exist within the FFVII universe. The same goes for fiction in general. Everything is inspired by something, even if the author is not consciously trying to make a point they may be making one anyway, but that’s not to say that the characters within the narrative also look at their world with Earthly eyes and recognise this for themselves.

All of that said… That is only what I see from this. Like people have said, each reader / viewer / player is going to see fiction in a different way. For me though, Christianity existing as anything more than referential seems unlikely. The same goes for the other religions referenced throughout the game. I can’t concede that these religions are present on the FFVII planet. It just wouldn’t make sense within the known mythology of the game.

All of this is really just another way of saying that there was influence in the game, of which I’d agree. I wouldn’t state that all things that have been influenced by our planet translates into those things existing on FFVII’s planet, as while it may seem so to some players, it wouldn’t seem so for the inhabitants of the planet which we are viewing and imagining. The fiction may exist within a game created on our own planet, but we are invited to imagine this world as being in a universe apart from our own. We are not invited to believe that it is actually our planet, as this wouldn’t make sense to most players, as it clearly isn’t our planet.

 

[Saints&Storms]

There are far too many religious references, hence the Tower of Babil, in all or nearly all FF games and FF worlds to simply say coincidence, I think. The Tower of Babil in FFIV is also literally translated the same as the name from the Biblical story.

The religions themselves and or the religious references are still there, no denying that, I mean there are way too many there to say otherwise. There are a lo9t of religons in our world as well, and jsut becaus ethere are more than one that doesn't expell the others. Just because there are more than one religions in FFVII doesn't mean there arent; any.

I though Da Chao was one of the Pagoda leaders from the past? I didn't know they worshipped him. I know that Leviathan was somewhat of a guardian dragon or something.Its not JUST the Church though, its also the word Gsopel, the cross on Viincents coffin the angels in Edge, Aerith prayiung the Christian way for her limit break, you can't look at these things as single Items they are all tied together so we have to take them as so.Someone can make the assumption with absolutely no proof that these things are only there as an influence and not an actual thing in the FF world, but the evidence supporting otherwise out-weighs this guess.

Why did they choose a Church for Aerith? Aerith who prays in a Christian style? When you think of a Church you don't think medieval times fantasy or fairy tale, you think Christianity or Catholicism or even God and Faith, these things are synonymous even analogous to some point. Naming the place a Church did make sense, because it was a Church which belongs to a woman who prays to angels/God, A Cross, Angel Statues in Edge, and Aerith praying would like to disagree. Those are ncie theories but there relly isn't anything to beck them up beside "Maybe's" and opinion. There are too many refernces again for us to assume coincidence over fact.


Its not simply influence, your ignoring that these thinsg actually do exiost in the FFVII universe or world, there are crosses angels and prayers present amuck. You don't have to accept it I guess but it ius indeed a fact. Its not secluded to just influecne these thing are in the game. Again its not Just a Church and there ARE worshippers -- Aerith prays, Vincent and Cloud wonder if the sins they have commited can really be forgiven, Cloud looks to an angel statue when Tifa is hurt and Marlene is missing in AC. Just because Jesus isn't mentioned in FFVII doesn't mean that Religion doesn't exist, it simply means there was no need to deeply focus on Religion just to have it as a reacurring theme.

No, you can't compile these things [The use of the word Gospel, A Church, A Cross, Angel Statues in Edge, Praying and having Roman style angels heal and save you] and come to any other conclusion than Christianity, the only culture those things belong to is A religious one and thats Christianity. The Church is actually called a church, lets step aside from its completely similar design to that of a Cathedral.

Not merely because a Church there are also Aerith Limit The Great Gospel, The Cross on Vincent Coffin, the Angel statues in Edge, the contemplation of forgiveness from sin, and Aerith hjerself praying.

Just because other faths exist in the FF universe doesn't mean Aerith follows all of them, she is seen praying and being saved by roman style angels, she liuves in a Church and her limit is called great Gospel -- which is another title for the Bible.

Where do you gather the Multi Faith thing? Simply because their are multiple religions in the FFVII world? Aerith doesn't live in a Biddhist temple, she doesn't live in a Mosque, she lives in a Church and Pray like a Christian does.


Theres more evidence supporting otherwise, you don't have to believe in opr even have interest in it, but just because you choose not to doesn't mean its isn't there.


There is too much saying otehrwise. You don't have to agree but thats the fact, ans that is all of these religious things in the game. But they are indeed present, accept it or not thay are. Ity actually does exist same as it does in our world.

It isn't our planet, and just because there are these religion doesn't mean it has to be pur planet. There are Cars, does that mean that they eitehr arent; cars or that this is and has to be our planet? No.

 

[Lebreau]

(A lot of this is in reply to Tori Amos' essay of a post, but I'm not going to quote that giant thing.)

At the end of the day, it all comes down to opinion. Good luck convincing people, but some of us don't think the same thing. What you call evidence we can just call symbols and familiar images that the game developers put in.

I've repeatedly stated that I don't believe she prays to a God, yet others believe that she prays to angels or God.

Your references could also be called maybes and opinions. Just because they exist doesn't mean Christianity does.

I doubt I can say anything to change anyone's minds, honestly.

Oh, and for the record, she doesn't live in the church. She lives in her house with her mom.

Spoiler

Well, foster mom.

And before you said Christians can pray any way, so that doesn't mean there's a single way to pray as a Christian... which means you can't say she's praying solely in a Christian way, as I would understand it.

You can't say they definitely exist unless you've got something from the game saying so, in my opinion. You can THINK it exists, belive it exists all you want. But don't say it's definitely there. References and similarities are not the same thing as something definitely being there.

 

[The Witch]

But seriously, if they didn't want religions to exist in the game, what would be the point in adding them to the game, then?

 

[Lebreau]

But seriously, if they didn't want religions to exist in the game, what would be the point in adding them to the game, then?

In your view, it appears that religions exist in the game.

I personally feel that while there's religious symbols and themes in the game, there's not ACTUALLY religion. You can have one without the other.

 

[The Witch]

Right.


So why give those religious symbolic items/words/actions/ if they didn't want it to really exists in some way?

 

[CassinoChips]

Right.


So why give those religious symbolic items/words/actions/ if they didn't want it to really exists in some way?

It's a symbol of religion in general, as they wanted to show Aeris in a spiritual light. It's not symbolic of a specific religion.

 

[Lebreau]

Well. The references can be taken as Christianity being in the game. I won't deny that, it could be taken that way. But let's take an atheist. They may see it as reference to fights over religion or something in the past.

I really feel like we're just going in circles, and I have my opinion and you have yours. You're not convincing me of anything and I'm not convincing you of anything either.

You think you have facts. I don't think your facts are actually facts. We're clearly not going to agree here.

You say she visits a church, and that's helping prove she's Christian. I say she's visiting the church because there's flowers there and she loves flowers.

You say she prays. I say she prays, yeah, but to the planet, not to a god or anything.

You say there's crosses. I say crosses don't have to be religious. The defintion of cross out of my webster's dictionary that is sitting on my lap is: 1a. An upright post with a transverse piece near the top, on which condemned people were executed in ancient times. b. often Cross. The cross on which Jesus was crucified. c. A crucifix. d. Any of various modifications of the cross design, such as a Maltese cross. 2. Christianity. The sign of the cross. 3. An affliction : BURDEN <a heavy cross to bear> 4. A mark formed by the intersection of two lines, esp. such a mark (X) used as a signature. 5. A pipefitting with four cross-shaped branches, used as a junction for intersecting pipes.

... and if I keep going, the definition will be like half a page long and I'm just not typing that much. I think I've proved that a cross does not have to equal Christianity.

 

[Dionysos]

There are far too many religious references, hence the Tower of Babil, in all or nearly all FF games and FF worlds to simply say coincidence, I think. The Tower of Babil in FFIV is also literally translated the same as the name from the Biblical story.

This is true, and it isn't just a coincidence in this case. Perhaps they were trying to make a point by naming the tower Babil, but that does not mean that the tower was the Tower of Babel from the Bible.

Kain is named after Cain from the Bible, but he is not the same character. He is a dark character, and he has committed a lot of sin, but he is not the same sinner.

I’m just stating that the Christian references are not alone, and are likely just that. They want to make us think about why they named people or locations a specific name, and we will draw from our own pool of knowledge from our own planet and make assumptions or guess at the importance of these things. They could easily have named the tower "The Tower of Blabagoofa", but then they'd need to explain what a Blabagoofa is, and why it is important in much more detail. Naming it Babil instantly strikes us, as we may recognise the story from the Bible and guess at the importance of the tower in this game.

There are references to many cultures and religions throughout the FF series yet few people would ever claim that these cultures exist on the planets too. Instead it is more likely that, just like in much sci-fi and fantasy fiction, some authors and writers make allusions to classical stories or biblical tales, and name their characters with a strange mix of the out-of-this-world and a familiar name. Points and comparisons may be being made, but these worlds are very much apart from ours, yet they stimulate a response from the audience.

The religions themselves and or the religious references are still there, no denying that, I mean there are way too many there to say otherwise. There are a lo9t of religons in our world as well, and jsut becaus ethere are more than one that doesn't expell the others. Just because there are more than one religions in FFVII doesn't mean there arent; any.

I didn't meant to suggest that. I was only talking about Aerith there, and how I take her (and this is just me and a lot of other people) to not just be representing Christianity, but a mixture of all religions, or the essence of Faith itself. If she really represents all religions then she cannot be a Christian, since for starters she would not be sticking to the one god.

I though Da Chao was one of the Pagoda leaders from the past? I didn't know they worshipped him. I know that Leviathan was somewhat of a guardian dragon or something.

As far as I've been informed the mountain statues are of Da Chao (and related mythology which is never explained). Leviathan is worshipped as a sort of god there, or as a guardian, but I think there is at least a hero-cult associated with Da Chao there too. I don't think enough information is given to us, but the point here is that the mountain statues are not Buddha. Inspired by, undoubtedly, but are not actually named as Buddha.

Therefore, we can't say that the deity who may once have been worshipped at the Midgar church isn't God, but we can't rule out that this being may have had a different name here, and a different mythology behind it.

Its not JUST the Church though, its also the word Gsopel, the cross on Viincents coffin the angels in Edge, Aerith prayiung the Christian way for her limit break, you can't look at these things as single Items they are all tied together so we have to take them as so.Someone can make the assumption with absolutely no proof that these things are only there as an influence and not an actual thing in the FF world, but the evidence supporting otherwise out-weighs this guess.

I don’t see how there is any less proof that these stem from influence than there is for proving that the religious symbols are proof that the religion exists there. We’re all playing with the same evidence here. What I said wasn’t an assumption or a guess, it is just simply my opinion based on looking at the world and the culture as a whole, and treating it as fiction. That’s all we can do, since there is no official word from either SE or God regarding this matter.

I just think that it is dangerous for us to assume that the appearance of something on an alien world resembling our own should be taken to be that thing, and not just something placed there to make us think about things in a certain way, or even just placed there because it is easier than making something up.

Why did they choose a Church for Aerith? Aerith who prays in a Christian style? When you think of a Church you don't think medieval times fantasy or fairy tale, you think Christianity or Catholicism or even God and Faith, these things are synonymous even analogous to some point. Naming the place a Church did make sense, because it was a Church which belongs to a woman who prays to angels/God, A Cross, Angel Statues in Edge, and Aerith praying would like to disagree. Those are ncie theories but there relly isn't anything to beck them up beside "Maybe's" and opinion. There are too many refernces again for us to assume coincidence over fact.

Its not simply influence, your ignoring that these thinsg actually do exiost in the FFVII universe or world, there are crosses angels and prayers present amuck. You don't have to accept it I guess but it ius indeed a fact. Its not secluded to just influecne these thing are in the game. Again its not Just a Church and there ARE worshippers -- Aerith prays, Vincent and Cloud wonder if the sins they have commited can really be forgiven, Cloud looks to an angel statue when Tifa is hurt and Marlene is missing in AC. Just because Jesus isn't mentioned in FFVII doesn't mean that Religion doesn't exist, it simply means there was no need to deeply focus on Religion just to have it as a reacurring theme.

Religion most likely did exist on that world, but we (Earth-humans) didn't, and therefore how could Jesus have been present on that planet? This is just like a fictional culture building a Greek-style temple on a distant planet, and then claiming it to be a holy place but does not state the name of the deities. It does not mean that the Greek Pantheon, or any earthly pantheon for that matter, have travelled to this distant world just because a similar building has been erected by a (as far as is known) completely unrelated culture. Yet in science fiction we often see such things.

Vincent and Cloud are never seen praying, as far as I am aware. With Vincent’s coffin, he is in a basement like a vampire and so the cross is as much a reference to holy imagery associated with battling vampires than it is religious worship.

Besides the worrying about sin, Vincent and Cloud do not strike me as the religious type at all. That's my opinion, I agree, but they don't mention any deities, and they don't seem to express a fear of a god who may punish them for their sins. Instead they just feel guilty for things they have done, and feel as if they should punish themselves else they shall never forgive themselves. The language used is similar to concern about sin, but we cannot know that it is religious in nature on this planet.

No, you can't compile these things [The use of the word Gospel, A Church, A Cross, Angel Statues in Edge, Praying and having Roman style angels heal and save you] and come to any other conclusion than Christianity, the only culture those things belong to is A religious one and thats Christianity. The Church is actually called a church, lets step aside from its completely similar design to that of a Cathedral.

Not merely because a Church there are also Aerith Limit The Great Gospel, The Cross on Vincent Coffin, the Angel statues in Edge, the contemplation of forgiveness from sin, and Aerith hjerself praying.

But there are alternate conclusions though. If all of the references to different cultures, real people, myths and monsters were to be taken as to be the actual things from our own planet then the game just would not make sense. If the angels are the Christian angels, and Aerith is praying to God, then how is it possible to have her summon other gods? What are famous philosophers doing working for Shinra? Most importantly of all, why are Jenova and Sephiroth opposing Aerith if she is a Christian, instead of being at her side?

Just because other faths exist in the FF universe doesn't mean Aerith follows all of them, she is seen praying and being saved by roman style angels, she liuves in a Church and her limit is called great Gospel -- which is another title for the Bible.

Where do you gather the Multi Faith thing? Simply because their are multiple religions in the FFVII world? Aerith doesn't live in a Biddhist temple, she doesn't live in a Mosque, she lives in a Church and Pray like a Christian does.

Aerith has been connected with more than just Christianity before this thread came about. People have connected her with Shinto, with 'pagan' beliefs and cults of the earth. She is also a descendant of the Cetra, whose architecture resembles a mix of Aztec and Egyptian, and the wall reliefs of the Temple of the Ancients reveal a very Egyptian-esque culture. Aerith feels a strong connection with all of these places, on a spiritual level. If the existence of a church is to be taken as meaning that Christianity exists, then the existence of these places could be taken as meaning that the Egyptian and Aztec pantheons have somehow married, and that Aerith taps into these too. I don't believe this, and therefore I just take it as inspiration or reference to ancient cultures, but we are led to believe that the Cetra religion was focused on the earth and the Lifestream, with which Aerith feels a very strong connection.

Putting everything together and I see Aerith as not only having Christian references within her, but of many faiths. The faith of Aerith is not stressed as being important, nor is it exclusive. Aerith could probably tap into any spiritual energy in the planet if she felt like it. The importance with Aerith is to have faith in general, not specifically limiting, and that it all comes down to the needs of the individual AND the planet.

Aerith’s primary attentions were focused downwards, not upwards or heavenwards. When she spoke in a spiritual or religious sense to the party it was with regards to the planet and her ancestors. Symbolism, rituals and architecture surrounding her and her religious expression do resemble faiths of our own planet, but Aerith’s faith ultimately relates to the Lifestream and the will of the planet.

Theres more evidence supporting otherwise, you don't have to believe in opr even have interest in it, but just because you choose not to doesn't mean its isn't there.

I've read the whole thread and I am very interested in the material posted. I just don't believe that it is telling the same story as some people in the thread tell it to be. I don't have to either, and no-one has to see it like I do. It's just interesting to talk about, that's all.

It isn't our planet, and just because there are these religion doesn't mean it has to be pur planet. There are Cars, does that mean that they eitehr arent; cars or that this is and has to be our planet? No.

I see your point there, but cars are entirely different. You don’t have to have a belief in a car for it to work. You turn the ignition and you drive. If you wanted to, you could even pretend that it isn’t a car, and is instead a giant beetle who likes to run off into the distance if you twist its ear (alien beetles have ears ) around and yell “yehaww!”, yet it would still do the same thing. Religion is different. You need to believe, or want to believe, or express some element of faith in the god/s connected to the religion, and also the beliefs and values of that religion.

It’s a different thing, in my opinion, to recognise that some of the physical properties, buildings, cultural styles of this alien world are similar to our planet than to say that the exact same beliefs, values and faith live there too. If the Christian religion really was that important to the inhabitants of the FFVII world, in my opinion, they would have mentioned the name of or acknowledged the existence of their god at least once.

The human imagination is vast, but it is also very limited in that it is based around what we can see and experience on our own planet. It would take a creative genius to design a vehicle which looks nothing like a car but shares the same purpose, and there was no reason for the creators of FFVII to think that deeply about cars. They'd much rather have their audience recognise a car as a car, and therefore notice the technology Mako energy provides for and perhaps self-reflect for a while about energy on our own planet. It's much simpler to throw in a car than to create a strange thing, and then have to explain what it is at some point in the game.

 

[Saints&Storms]

No, it’s not really opinion, in my case I have posted evidence and facts pictures and actual existing things from the FFVII world, in others cases they are saying "it could be this" and "it could be that", sometimes even saying "I think"s and "Maybe"s.

You have stated that and I heard you, but you didn't back it up, I have backed my statements up, The limit she uses is called the Gospel, in the limit she prays and angels come and save her and friends, she even resides in a Church and there are Crosses present in the FFVII games.

I don't think that the Cross on Vincent’s coffin is a Cross, it is. I don't think that Aerith's flowers bloom in a Church it is a Church, I don't think that they are Angels descending from the sky they are, I don't think that they are angels statues in Edge they matter of fact - are.

Your right she doesn't live in the Church, she lives with her Mom, but she spends most of her time there and it is indeed a sacred place for her and is called a Church.

Yes there is a single specific way Christians pray, I don't think I said we pray any way, I think I said Jews pray a specific way and Christians pray a specific way.= the only difference is there isn't a specific place we pray, like there is for others.

Christians pray to God for Help/Answers/Guidance and even healing, Aerith prays for help, obviously since Angels come and heal her, they are indeed Catholic style angels since they bear resemblance to Roman Angels.


But they ARE there, Members and I myself even of this thread have posted pictures of Angels, Aerith Praying the Christian way, Churches, Crosses and even references to "Holy hell" for desecrating a Church flower bed, the use of the word Gospel, Characters in the game countless times saying "Godammit" -- how can a God damn something when there allegedly isn't a God?

It's a symbol of religion in general, as they wanted to show Aeris in a spiritual light. It's not symbolic of a specific religion.

No, a Cross represents Christianity or Catholicism, not religion in general.

1 Corinthians 1:17-19
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel-not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

----

Of course it’s not the same Tower of Babil (I think) and of course Kain isn't Cain, I never said they were, but Biblical references and undeniable nonetheless, The Bible/God has played its place in the recent FF's so why assume they are merely and randomly using the Bible for reference just because? Why assume that they aren't throwing these Biblical references in there because religion/Christianity does exist?

No, A Cross doesn't make me think of God and Christianity its proof that its really there, you can't have one without the other, it just wouldn't make sense unless the Square-Enix team somehow believe they invented the Cross. So yes, why did they choose the Bible? They wanted us to think into by your own admission you've said this, they didn't want us to shrug it off. Simply using Biblical names because they didn't want to introduce new names doesn't make sense, they could and have easily invented names and not explain them like; SEED, or invented them and have explained them; like Ancients.

There are many religious references and existences in these games, A Cross is a Cross and nothing else, it holds no other meaning but God, it literally means "To God, Through God" nothing else.

So just because Aerith shares the anatomy of a woman we can't assume she is indeed a woman?


I don't know where or how you gather that Aerith represents all religions, she lives in a Church and prays like a Christian with a limit named Great Gospel, Not the Great Torah or Great Qur'an nor the Great Tripitaka or even simply the Great Religion they chose "Gospel" for a reason.

Simply to be shrugged off? I guess is your decision, I am an analytical person and since one of the Guys who made the game [Nomura] said we'd have to watch Advent Children many times before knowing the true meaning of the movie I think I will keep being analytical.


But the mere existence of a Cross and Angels cancels out your opinion, and what I am posting isn't my opinion I see Crosses and Churches and say "Proof that God/Religion exists in this world"

I am not assuming, I am posting pictures from the Game itself, created on purpose for us to see (Cross, Church, Angels etc.) by the creators. I don't assume it’s a Cross, it IS, as opposed to you assuming with no actual proof that they simply threw these things in there for our...familiarity?


Who's to say it isn't our planet? They are humans are they not? I recall one of Aeriths limits being called Breath of Earth. How can God and Jesus not exist when Crosses, angels and Churches do and Buddha does? One of Sephiroth's finishing blows even show our solar system, planets and our universe.

Vampires are another reference to religion a stem off of religion, can't have Vampires without Crosses, Crosses defeat them because they are demons and God is repellent to demonic evil. No they don't pray I didn't say they did but in Advent Children they are seen wondering if Sin can truly be forgiven.

But there's a Cross on Vincent’s coffin, the coffin I believe he locked himself away in.

Sin + Cross + Church + Angels + Gospel + Praying > God

Many people believe in many faiths on our Planet, that doesn't make all other religions less existent to these people, why would any need to cancel the other out? Many Religions can be practiced and exist to people, it is a fictional world they are mixing many things together; it's their world all of them could be existent.

But you can't absolutely redefine a Cross, Church, Gospel, Angels, and Praying.

Has Aerith been seen practicing these religion, keep in mind Aerith Prayed like a Christian or Catholic to her Limit Break titled The Great Gospel. Aerith is seen speaking to the Planet, not worshiping it, she prays to Holy Materia which is most likely just the way to activate the ancient Materia. Aztec and Egyptian bloodline isn't a Religion and not something to be practiced nor do we see Aerith practicing it. I haven’t seen Aerith worshiping Buddha, What is the basis for connecting her to Shinto’s exactly?

Where is the proof though? Aerith Prays like a Christian/Catholic, Angels Come down, She resides in a Church, her limit is called Great Gospel But it is exclusive, reference the above.

Where was Aerith seen worshiping the Lifestream? I think that that is just the energy that makes up people in the FFVII game, there is indeed a Heaven -- the Promised Land a Biblical Reference to Heaven as well, even Tifa's limit references Heaven.


I've said you don’t have to many times, and you don't but you can't say a Cross, a Church, Angels, Gospel, and Praying mean anything other than Religion or Christianity, they aren't just empty things they are full with meaning.


I never said you had to have belief in the Car for it to work, the point I was trying to make and I think you thought I was saying religion and cars are the same or similar -- and they aren’t' -- the point I was saying if a pig looks like a pig, is called a pig, sound like a pig and smells like a pig -- its pig.

You could tiptoe and say anything but that doesn't make the pig any less a pig.

I never said it was important to the inhabitants of the FFVII world, but it certainly is to a few of them including Aerith. And most importantly it’s there to build character not storyline; it molded Aeriths pure character even more than it already was.

There wasn't, and to assume that it’s not a car it’s just similar because imagination runs dry nowadays seems rather shallow. A Cross, Church The Gospel, Angels and Praying have only one meaning which like you said before -- they intended us to looks into -- and that is Religion or Christianity itself.

The SE team has obviously adjusted this world in their game but the similarities are there, and if they meant it another way they could and would have made it clear.

Are the Cars in FFVII called giant beetles? Then I think that answers itself.

---

Another thing, I believe Tseng has a Hindu Tilaka, but I am not really sure, looks a helluva lot like one.

Ifrit is another clear existence that shows Religion is present in the game, but if anything they are all true -- in the game. Ifrit is an Islamic djinn of some sort.

 

[CassinoChips]

So then these:

... must be Christian caves because they are carved in the shape of a cross?

And the crux ansata, which is used by Coptic Christians today:

.... can only be interpreted as a Christian symbol?

And in general, all crosses can only be interpreted to represent Christianity, and can have no other meaning? That's essentially what you're saying, right? Cross = Christian?

 

[Saints&Storms]

No. A Cross is any of these; Crosses.

What do we see on Vincent's coffin is it the Ankh that you posted? Or a Cross? Its a Cross, what you posted there is not a Cross and not even close to what is on Vincent's coffin :/

What you posted isn't what is on Vincents coffin, the Cross on Vincent's Coffin is a Catholic or Christian Cross or the Latin Cross mostly used to show and remember the Crucifixion of Christ - Jesus Christ that is, unless there is another Christ.

I never said "Anything resembling a cross, equals cross" What is on Vincent coffin is a Latin Cross or a Crucifix, minus Jesus.

It isn't an Ankh, you're playing semantics.

So yes.

+

+

+

+

= Christian

Like DITD said, I wasn't summing up just the cross with my post but numerous things, was it not worth reading?
​

​

 

[The Witch]

Besides the crosses, what about the rest of her post, Terry? This isn't just about the cross on Vincent's coffin, it's about many many different religious "symbols" in VII's world.

We can't just use crosses as a sole reason to prove Christianity, just as no one else can use many religions using cross-like items to prove Christianity doesn't exist in the game.

If there's a Buddha in VII's world, there can just as likely be a Jesus. And since we all saw that Buddhist statue in Wutai, then it's logical for some to see things like crosses, churches, roman-catholic angels, prayers to those angels, the words gospel, heaven, and god, and come to the conclusion that yes, religions exist in this mystical world. To be specific, there's many religions mentioned in VII's world, to name the one's I know of, it's Christianity, Buddhism, Islam.

Why?

Buddhism is proven with the Buddhist statue, Islam is proven with Ifrit, and Christianity is proven with the church, roman-catholic angels, Gospel, Heaven, and most of all the Cross.

 

[CassinoChips]

The Coptic cross/ankh is on your list of Christian crosses. And it's the perfect example. To Coptic Christians, it represents Christianity. To the Egyptians, who first used it, it represents Sekhet, or life. It's an alchemical symbol as well. Three different meanings for three different groups of people. Which means that meaning is in the eye of the interpreter.

Even the cross itself was used in iconography centuries before Christ's era. It symbolized life. Early Christians didn't use the cross very often as a symbol. They used the fish. The cross represented something negative to them. Over time, the crucifix became associated with Christianity. But that doesn't make it the exclusive domain of Christianity.

 

[Saints&Storms]

The Coptic cross/ankh is on your list of Christian crosses. And it's the perfect example. To Coptic Christians, it represents Christianity. To the Egyptians, who first used it, it represents Sekhet, or life. It's an alchemical symbol as well. Three different meanings for three different groups of people. Which means that meaning is in the eye of the interpreter.

Even the cross itself was used in iconography centuries before Christ's era. It symbolized life. Early Christians didn't use the cross very often as a symbol. They used the fish. The cross represented something negative to them. Over time, the crucifix became associated with Christianity. But that doesn't make it the exclusive domain of Christianity.

The meaning isn't in the eye of the interpreter, you can choose to ignore it and not agree, but you can't say it isn't so when factual evidence says otherwise. It isn't JUST a Cross its many Christian objects and other religious items as well. The proof is in the pudding or game in this case.

The Ankh represents life, there is no Ankh present on Vincents Cross, the Coptic Cross looks slightly different than the Ankh and looks nothing like what on Vincents Coffin, a Cross in of Vincents Coffin, a Latin/Greek Cross, a Crucifix if you will. Was Vincent buried like Egyptian Mummies were?

Why are you singling it out? Its an equation you need all the pieces, Its not just a Cross, its also a Church, Angels, Praying, The Gospel, Mention of Sin, Buddha, Ifrit other Religious existence's.

Have you read the Bible Terry? I just posted a verse from the Bible for what the Cross means and there are countless others as well.

---

 

[The Witch]

The Coptic cross/ankh is on your list of Christian crosses. And it's the perfect example. To Coptic Christians, it represents Christianity. To the Egyptians, who first used it, it represents Sekhet, or life. It's an alchemical symbol as well. Three different meanings for three different groups of people. Which means that meaning is in the eye of the interpreter.

Even the cross itself was used in iconography centuries before Christ's era. It symbolized life. Early Christians didn't use the cross very often as a symbol. They used the fish. The cross represented something negative to them. Over time, the crucifix became associated with Christianity. But that doesn't make it the exclusive domain of Christianity.

Terry, proving that other societies used the cross too doesn't take away from the fact that Christian's also use it. Many different groups of religions and societies use it, but if you can admit that the cross is used by others, that means you must accept that Christians also use it. If you do, then that still means this all exists in VII's world.

Which, I'm not sure about anyone else, is now what I'm focusing on most.

If you all can say it's not a Christian cross and rather a Anka/etc, then that means that group or society that uses crosses exists in VII's world. And if you admit that exists in VII's world than so can Christianity.

But as stated above by Tory, it's not an Ankh on Vincen'ts coffin, it's a Cross. A Crucifix cross to be specific.

Like I said, we can't just focus on the cross, it's the compilation of all of it we have to take into account.